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Misunderstanding with the word "MANIPULATED IMAGE"
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:arrow: Hey guys, In some threads there is a very interesting issue mentioned: “digital processing” and very often it is connected with “manipulated image”…with a bad taste. i would like to know what you think about it.
I try to overcome the “natural technical limitation” of a camera with digital processing. My aim is, to come as close to my own see exprience as possible. “manipulation” has got this bad taste but every body seems to forget, that the old chemical darkroom was used in the same way…to express a concept and to overcome the natural issues with cameras. sometimes it seems to be, that people think, that a “normal” photograph with blured or overexposed sky is the real image because it isn’t “manipulated”, because they just pressed the botton. I think that the word “manipulated” is used in a funny way because it is based on a wrong concept and seems to reduce the quality or archivment within the image…my point of view.
Our eyes are magical…pure magic, the little chips in the cameras or even a film are brutal compared to the sensitiv eyes. My goal is, to use every possible software, filters and photo technique to overcome the burden of cameras and to come as close as possible to the glory of light, colours, contrast in nature.
What do you think, what is the matter with the manipulation idea
:arrow: This was a beautiuful sunset, busy with colours and light. The “just press the botton” does not work to archive this impressiv colour range and contrast. this is a HDR, 7 images with Photomatix and adjustment layers in PS CS3.
This is, what i saw (using hdr and PS)
This is, what the camera was able to archive with one image, to have details in the sky and the shadow area.
Hi Madeleine,
Your images are fantastic, and I agree with everything you have said here. If someone thinks that the image created by their camera’s jpeg processing engine is somehow more pure than an image created in the digital darkroom, I think they are only kidding themselves.
There are people who process their images to have a natural look, and those who use a little more artistic licence when it comes to creating their images. I place myself in the latter category, and someone like Andy McInroy in the former. Although we may have different approaches, I think Andy will agree that we respect each others work. However, I would imagine that it would be very rare for either of us to load up a raw file, hit the auto button, and be satisfied with what we saw.
I would liken it to seasoning food while cooking… you may only like a little salt, or you may like to go crazy with the salt and pepper, it just depends on your individual taste, but both approaches work well. However, if you don’t season at all, the food will be bland, and after all that time spent in the kitchen you never really achieve your full potential!!
I also think that those who claim that true photographers will use camera created jpegs, just don’t know how to use Photoshop!
Steve
Hi Madelaine.
Nothing wrong with some manupilation I think. Untill you’re at the point where you just take an average picture thinkng “Ill make it look good using lightroom/photoshop”. Then, you lose quality as a photographer, as it doesn’t really reflect the reality anymore. Your images are stunning, you definetely know how to use your computer, and do it in a good way, but ive seen people (also on this board) that really only use manipulation to make an average pic look better..
Hello Madeline-
I’m not confused by the distinction myself,
and it’s true that pictures have been processed and manipulated from the beginning-If I’m fooled by a manipulation and I like the picture, fine-
but it better not be claiming to be a representation of something actual and important-It’s kinda lazy, in a way, to have to remove things later that don’t fit with your vision-
the one referred to here most often is the lamp post or telegraph cable-
If your vision is of unspoiled nature, then why not find it, and photograph that,
rather than take a few steps from the car and clone out something undesirable later-It has become so easy to do anything with computers-
some of the processes you talked about were very esoteric and expensive, and only possible with large originals-
it would have been very difficult to work with 35mm, and produce the kind of processing and manipulation you mentioned-I’ve gone beyond the point of caring-
people will do what they do, and quibble about it-
whether it’s photography or pixel pushing is not really a debate I want to be part of-The less sophisticated, photographically, will always be taken in with trickery of any sort-
However, the tell tale signs will often be there if you know where to look-It’s always about the image, each one individually-
even if you don’t like the idea of hdr, or some other process,
an image will come along that you will like, despite your prejudices-There are no hard and fast rules-
but even that is only an opinion-j
proach wrote:
Untill you’re at the point where you just take an average picture thinkng “Ill make it look good using lightroom/photoshop”. Then, you lose quality as a photographer, as it doesn’t really reflect the reality anymore. Your images are stunning, you definetely know how to use your computer, and do it in a good way, but ive seen people (also on this board) that really only use manipulation to make an average pic look better..
I personally have never seen anyone succeed with this approach. I think that if the fundamental image isn’t good enough to begin with, then no amount of playing around with it in a darkroom or on a computer is going to turn that image into a great image.
:arrow: Steve: wonderful summery…i fully agree! and thank you (:
proach: I would say it like this: My bad bad camera is manipulating the reality and i try to bring it back to its original face…..seen with MY eyes. Funny but after changing my whole equipment into digital equipment, i realized that i became LAZY and thoughts like: oh i can do this in PS or i can get read of it appeared in my mind. Also the quantity of images was massiv! i became really fat up with it and came back to my “old” behavoir, concentration, thats how it is, PS will take care of the light (:
jb7: yes, removing things, moving things from the left to the right, beautyface retouche….i fully agree and i guess, that the negative image of “manipulation” arose out of this.
Thorsten: i fully agree, it is quite dangerous to play with complicated and delicate pixelshapes. The base has to be powerfull by itself. I use all the technology ot let the true light shining in the image. Blessings to the adobe PS team and greg downing (:
thorsten, have a look around on this board, there’s plenty of such images.
proach wrote:
thorsten, have a look around on this board, there’s plenty of such images.
I wish you luck finding an average image which was turned into a great image using Photoshop!
Never said average into great Steve, I said make it look better (let’s say ‘acceptable’).
proach wrote:
Never said average into great Steve, I said make it look better (let’s say ‘acceptable’).
But if it isn’t great, is it acceptable? :D
Hehe, I suppose that depends on your standards, and quality as photographer. You dont need to worry about it though..
proach wrote:
I Never said average into great Steve, I said make it look better (let’s say ‘acceptable’).
Thorsten said ‘no amount of playing around with an average image in a darkroom or on a computer will turn that image into a great image.’ You then said “have a look around on this board, there’s plenty of such images.” :?
Hi Madeleine,
I think your question has arisen because of some of the comments on your photos (see this topic https://www.photographyireland.net/viewtopic.php?t=23219 ).
What’s manipulation when it comes to digital photography? Well answering this question is probably harder then we think, and perhaps it’s more to personal preferences. Some changes you make using software aren’t any different from those made in darkroom using chemicals. I think some adjustments are necessary due to digital photography nature, I usually apply some sharpening, some white balance corrections, personally I think it’s ok and acceptable. I also go further with some of the photos and do more dramatic changes using photoshop or other software and that I consider manipulation. Of course some people will like it some will criticise the final effect, the question is, is this a problem for me? When it comes to me it doesn’t bother me at all, I treat it as some sort of art.
Now if you post your photos on forums like this you may expect different comments, but that’s what you’re posting for to find out what other people think about your photos. Not everyone might be impressed with your processing or approach etc. Maybe that’s something to think about? :wink:I also think that those who claim that true photographers will use camera created jpegs, just don’t know how to use Photoshop!
Hmm that’s interesting, maybe they just know how to use their cameres :lol:
Just kidding :wink:
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