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How much for a photograph
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nfl-fan wrote:
What I find strange is the manner is which people get a bit uppity here when someone comes along looking for someone to do a photo job on the cheap.
Yet… if you wanted a few blocks laid, a damaged partition wall plastered, a leaky pipe fixed you’d have no problem asking a professional blocker layer/plasterer/plumber to do a nixer.
Amazes me how the ‘arty farty’ bit of photography can lead some egos astray.
I don’t blame the consumer for wanting the professional to offer discount rates… I do blame the professional for agreeing to do so.
Amateur photographers, (of which I am one) that offer non commercial rates for commercial work, do no one any favours. For one, they are taking work away from the hard working full time professional photographers who simply can’t afford to discount down to a hobbyists nixers rates. But it also damages the hobbyist. So many amateur photographers have aspirations of going professional and if or when they do, their earlier discounted pricing will have shot them selves in the foot. Their existing customer base will want a continued discounted rate, which won’t sustain a business and if they try to increase it, the customers will go off and find the next hobbyist willing to part with an image for tuppance.
An image should have an intrinsic value, regardless of who it is taken by. If you charge well below this rate.. worse fool you.
ciaran wrote:
I don’t blame the consumer for wanting the professional to offer discount rates… I do blame the professional for agreeing to do so.
‘Good negotiating skills are critical to the success of any independent photographer, yet this talent is frequently not what comes naturally to us. Listen to some tips and insights on this difficult issue‘: If you sell yourself cheap you will never get out of that hole by Barbara Bordnick and members of the ASMP.
nfl-fan wrote:
What I find strange is the manner is which people get a bit uppity here when someone comes along looking for someone to do a photo job on the cheap.
Yet… if you wanted a few blocks laid, a damaged partition wall plastered, a leaky pipe fixed you’d have no problem asking a professional blocker layer/plasterer/plumber to do a nixer.
Amazes me how the ‘arty farty’ bit of photography can lead some egos astray.
:roll:
The reason I don’t offer to do a job for someone is because of choice and not for reasons such “people don’t understand the artistic side” or “I’d be doing some pro out of work”.
People have the right to choose… to choose how much they want to pay, to choose who they want to do it, to choose if they want an amatuer or a pro.
If an amateur is getting work over a pro then that’s simply competition. I mean who decides what “too cheap” is and how many factual cases of “they shot themselves in the foot and went bust by charging too little” that we keep hearing people talking of do we actually know of?
If someone wants to charge for something on the cheap then that’s their choice. If they want to start low, build a reputation and gradually increase their prices then why not? I’d have thought that this is a pretty sensible and logical approach.
Makes me laugh too when photographers get all uptight when Average Joe says “I’ll buy my own camera and take my own photos” like it’s total blashpemy or something. Sure of course someone who knows little or nothing about photography can go and buy their own camera and try photography… they might even get good at it… sure isn’t that the way most of us started?
Nobody could ever afford to buy my art… it’s priceless…
Ya Ashley, if you could ever see past the fact that not everything is about money you’d realise I was taking the p*ss when I said that but as it stands it does hold some truth as I put no value on my photography other than personal enjoyment… so to say it’s priceless means it is without price (tangible, monetary), which is quite true.
nfl-fan wrote:
Ya Ashley, if you could ever see past the fact that not everything is about money …
:)
I think a problem arises when somebody wants an amateur peron to do a job at amateur prices but expects professional results. I learned the hard way along time ago that – that can be the case when I did a job for a person at a fraction of the normal cost (wasnt photography ) but in the end they expected top class results the same applies to all work that you charge a fee for , set your fee if they cant afford it so be it. I see nothing wrong with people claiming photography as an art form and then saying that some people just dont understand it. as some people dont . then again I wouldnt say all photography is art as its clearly not
nfl-fan wrote:
If an amateur is getting work over a pro then that’s simply competition. I mean who decides what “too cheap” is and how many factual cases of “they shot themselves in the foot and went bust by charging too little” that we keep hearing people talking of do we actually know of?
If someone wants to charge for something on the cheap then that’s their choice. If they want to start low, build a reputation and gradually increase their prices then why not? I’d have thought that this is a pretty sensible and logical approach.
I have no idea what you do for a living nfl? Certainly from your response, my guess is you’ve never been involved in owning or running a business?
I have my own business, which was founded in 2002. It’s a services business, completely unrelated to photography, but it has a lot of things in common with it in a business sense of view. My customers hire me to provide a servic and the fact is any Joe Soap could pretty much go out on their own and do the same thing. You asked how many factual cases do we know of, of people shooting themselves in the foot? Well in my case, in the 7 years we have been in business, I know of 5 companies that set up to provide the same services as my company. All charged way below market rates and all are now gone bust (for numerous reasons, not just their pricing).
Selling a service based solely on cost is a road to a hiding! If you’re getting customers just because you’re cheap, then the only thing the next Joe Soap has to do, is do it cheaper. It’s not competition.. it’s madness. The one thing a business has to be is sustainable. So pricing has to be realistic.
I’ll return to my scenario. A businessman asks for a photo, enlarged,mounted and framed and is only willing to pay for the framing. To me that is taking the p1ss. The photo in this case was of a bird. He could buy a camera, lenses etc, take an even better photo technically, but he will never have that EXACT photo no matter what. I’m not claiming to be an artist, or even a good photographer, but if I spend half a day getting to a place, getting wet in the rain, taking a shot, and producing an acceptable image, I think I am entitled to ask a fair price for a copy of it. If that same guy asked me to produce a photo for him today, I would charge a lot more. Not because I can produce a better photograph now, but I would not be willing to sell myself short. I don’t think he can comprehend that I too have expenses.
So pricing has to be realistic
I agree… and thus the reason why I posed the question who decides what “too cheap” is? I never suggested that someone do things at a level that is below their own sustenance. At the very least you have to account for your costs.
Profit margin is the grey area here and often reading these threads I wonder how mislead people are when there are suggestions that amatuers might possibly be best served charging “closer to pro” prices…. nobody will admit to actually saying that, but that’s how it often reads.
Amatuers doing nixers can charge below average rates because they typically they aren’t dependant on a photography nixer as their only source of income. I also believe that they should charge well below average for the simple reason that they are amatuer and probably little to nothing is guaranteed in terms of the quality of the deliverables.
The reason I’m slightly irked is because when it comes to business chat around here typically all you have are 2 re-occuring themes:
* Don’t charge to little (That statement on its own is about as useful as telling someone something is as long as a piece of string)
* People don’t understand art/creativity etc.If that’s all people were to concern themselves with then I think they’d have a lot more problems than they ever envisaged. I just wonder where the emphasis on the real crooks of running a business are e.g.
* Acting like a Professional
* Quality of Service
* Building a Maintaining a Reputation
* Understanding your Client/Knowing your Customer Base
* Managing/Limiting/Reducing Costs
* Marketing
* Moving with the times/trendsOf course cost is always a factor for people and I know it can be a major driving force when it comes to choice of provider. Too cheap is often an alarming factor, too expensive is off-putting.
Ciaran: I don’t own my own business. My father did for a number of years so I had a little bit of exposure to this. I work in situations where quite often we have to evaluate 3rd Parties for I.T. Application Implementations. I’d be involved in assessing the quality/terms of service & costs. The rapport we have with 3rd Parties is often very, very important… typically the costs are the biggest driver, but we do look for the right balance.
Anyway the point being… if amateurs want to do nixers why worry? If people want to hire amateurs to do nixers why worry? Why not worry about what you can control and not external factors that are outside your control? Amatuers doing nixers is a reality that all Pros have to face. Amatuers doing nixers don’t have some sort of agenda to shaft pro’s, they are making the most of an opportunity presented to them. It’s the customers that choose who they want to do the work… it’s their money… their choice… people just have to live with the reality.
People might not understand art but they do have their own understanding of money & value which is theirs to have, not for us to dispute. If the pub bloke doesn’t believe that a photo is worth the asking price then that’s his choice… let him on, let him buy a camera, let him go take his own photos… I certainly won’t turn my nose up at him… I say “Go for it”. Is it a sin or morally incorrect to be un-impressed by a price? Send me to hell so if it is.
nfl-fan wrote:
What I find strange is the manner is which people get a bit uppity here when someone comes along looking for someone to do a photo job on the cheap.
Yet… if you wanted a few blocks laid, a damaged partition wall plastered, a leaky pipe fixed you’d have no problem asking a professional blocker layer/plasterer/plumber to do a nixer.
Amazes me how the ‘arty farty’ bit of photography can lead some egos astray.
First of all a “nixer” is a job outside of regular work and does not necessarily mean cheap unless you factor in that you’re employing one uninsured bloke with no backing to which end you have no recourse. So if you want a nixer of that sort ask Uncle Bob with his one of those complicated cameras and really long zoom lense to do it for you.
As for arty farty… After I’ve invested 40k-50k of my money in equipment from Pro SLRs to powerful computers + software and industrial photographic grade computers, years of my life learning the trade and then you want me do spend my time driving out to your place, lugging lights, backdrops, laptops and gear, spending time with you to review and discuss and demonstrate your photographs which in itself takes up hours of my time. Then afterwards spend more hours re-touching, printing and returning your prints to you. Don’t bother to insult my efforts please with your ignorance by comparing me to a plasterer that turns up late on a Saturday morning smelling of last nights hangover with a lousy fckuing trowel in his hand and asking me if I have a board that he can use and then expects to exploit me for €400 per day.
So on behalf of us “real” photographers Up Yours too mate!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Welcome to the site Nossie… love your website… the 40k-50k investment just jumps out at you… quality.
Your absolutely right of course… those plasters and their dirty boots, shameful.
BTW: I know a stripper called Giorgio… I’m his agent… drop me a PM if you know anyone looking for the Top Gun of Male Strippers… no job too big, no job too small… cash only though… nixers… you know yourself.
nfl-fan wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Welcome to the site Nossie… love your website… the 40k-50k investment just jumps out at you… quality.
Your absolutely right of course… those plasters and their dirty boots, shameful.
BTW: I know a stripper called Giorgio… I’m his agent… drop me a PM if you know anyone looking for the Top Gun of Male Strippers… no job too big, no job too small… cash only though… nixers… you know yourself.
Yeap my site has a few rough edges I’ll agree with that. I tend to put too much time into developing the backend application that scoops up all the photos, resizes, watermarks and then posts them to the site with a single click ready for online ordering unlike your own site which is… uhm… well… er… non-existant!? Oh and there I thought I’d have a snippy come back.
I think I know that stripper. He’s on my site somewhere swinging a mallet at a rather under-impressed birthday girl. At least I think it’s a male stripper.
Smiley smiley smiley etc.
Don’t be like that now Raymond.
BTW: Where’s the single click ordering link for the 4 Course Meal €25 per adult – €12.50 per child? Don’t see the menu, do you cater for vegetarians? Do I get a free key ring? You wouldn’t get a free key ring from a plaster that’s for sure.
Are you sure you’re not PeteTheBloke?
nfl-fan wrote:
Don’t be like that now Raymond.
BTW: Where’s the single click ordering link for the 4 Course Meal €25 per adult – €12.50 per child? Don’t see the menu, do you cater for vegetarians? Do I get a free key ring? You wouldn’t get a free key ring from a plaster that’s for sure.
Are you sure you’re not PeteTheBloke?
I was going to ignore your post since it’s not contributing to the original posters questions but I saw this about the forum and I thought of you… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
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