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Pension levy- whats your opinion
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Case Study in Private Sector versus Public Sector.
Public Sector – Jobs cuts threatened = possible strike action, union uproar, mass media coverage, mass meetings in hotels around the country
Private Sector – My job gets cut because there is just not enough work. No strike action, no union, no media, no meetings.
I am in no way bitter about what has just happened to me. I have been in business for long enough to understand the reality of the situation. I cannot expect my company to pay me wages for work that is not there. It makes sense. It’s simple economics.
Am i bitter about what would have happened if I were public sector, yes.
Dublin Bus is loosing money, Dublin Bus needs to cut dead routes and cut staff. It’s simple economics. What happens here. Strike, unions, media, meetings.What do I get when I leave. A few beers and a months wages. Am I bitter, no. It’s a good deal. I do not qualify for redundancy so my job is being as fair as they can. I appreciate that.
What happens in Dublin Bus when people are let go. They will most likely ( if they are let go ) get a better redundancy package than the average joe. Unions will fight their corner and they will most likely get more than what they would under any normal circumstances.
Again. I saw my redundancy coming. It’s right that it’s me and not one of the lads with a family to support. Am I pissed that Public Sector employees continue to bitch and moan about every single penny they loose, hell yeah I am. They have it better now and have had it better for a long time.
Welcome to the real world folks. It can be great out here at times but it can also be pretty bleak.
GrahamB wrote:
Case Study in Private Sector versus Public Sector.
Public Sector – Jobs cuts threatened = possible strike action, union uproar, mass media coverage, mass meetings in hotels around the country
Private Sector – My job gets cut because there is just not enough work. No strike action, no union, no media, no meetings.
I am in no way bitter about what has just happened to me. I have been in business for long enough to understand the reality of the situation. I cannot expect my company to pay me wages for work that is not there. It makes sense. It’s simple economics.
Am i bitter about what would have happened if I were public sector, yes.
Dublin Bus is loosing money, Dublin Bus needs to cut dead routes and cut staff. It’s simple economics. What happens here. Strike, unions, media, meetings.What do I get when I leave. A few beers and a months wages. Am I bitter, no. It’s a good deal. I do not qualify for redundancy so my job is being as fair as they can. I appreciate that.
What happens in Dublin Bus when people are let go. They will most likely ( if they are let go ) get a better redundancy package than the average joe. Unions will fight their corner and they will most likely get more than what they would under any normal circumstances.
Again. I saw my redundancy coming. It’s right that it’s me and not one of the lads with a family to support. Am I pissed that Public Sector employees continue to bitch and moan about every single penny they loose, hell yeah I am. They have it better now and have had it better for a long time.
Welcome to the real world folks. It can be great out here at times but it can also be pretty bleak.
Hi Graham, couldn’t agree more – I’ve been “let go” a couple of times, but I saw it coming both times, and I got a good enough deal each time.
One consolation I use (a bit smug perhaps) is that the likes of us, with our realistic approach, contribute more to society that those in the Public Service (though not everyone
by any means) who live in this cloud cuckoo land!
Their colleagues who do live in the real world carry them, helped by us in the private sector – a freeloader is a freeloader – Public or Private.
The only difference is that you don’t survive for long in the Private side with that attitude!thedarkroom wrote:
Every one in the Public Sector is very conscious of the fact that we are cushioned, to a certain extent, from the severest of the current impacts that are befalling the country and realize that we have to make sacrifices too. That is a given. No one wants to take a pay cut, that, too, is a given. But the fact is that we do have to take a hit just like every one else, we have to give up part of our salary. Any one who says different or resists it is not being realistic.
Please, could people get rid of this ‘us and them’ frenzy that has been stirred up by the media, egged on by the government. If this continues it will develop a rift which will only fester and be counter productive.
Whilst I agree that the us and them gig is a red herring, and should be avoided where possible, but I have a couple of questions.
If the Public service accepts all the reasonable points that you make, WHEN are we going to hear the detail of WHAT you are prepared to accept as cuts?
Either your are objecting against cuts on principal, and threatening strikes to defend your position, or the threats are just negotiating moves, in which
case I’d like an answer to my questions on WHEN – the public service prevaricates whilst the rest of us goes on the dole!No wonder you are accused of missing reality!
Darkroom, I have to be honest but I take what the public sector says with a pinch of salt.
I mean, the second job cuts or wage cuts are announced there is always the infamous union meeting
that results in the “possibility” of strike action. The public sector has always historically used the threat of strike as
weapon against the government and the private sector. When bus drivers strike and people cannot get to work it
cost private enterprise millions. When public sector protest in the streets and cause traffic chaos it costs private business millions.When the public sector got hit with a pension levy, there was outrage. I understand people need money to survive and I understand the pension levy is a big hit. However you will be looked after. You will protest and the government will bend ( if not back down entirely ).
There is no point in arguing the inevitable. When this recession finally ends you will most likely be sitting at the same desk you are now and living in the same house you are now.
I, and others like me, cannot see where we will be or where we will be living. That is truth.
Hi Graham,
First of all I am very conscious of the fact that it is extremely unlikely that I will ever be made redundant because I work in the public service, I know that that is a privileged position in itself and is a benefit in kind. That security is not a certainty but it is unlikely. However, across the public service in general, that security is not guaranteed.
Dublin Bus is a case in point. I don’t work there, I don’t even use the bus, but my taxes (aswell as every other tax payer, public or private) does subsidize it and I think that it’s proper. I don’t think that it should be a requirement that Dublin Bus should be profitable because it is a public service available to all sectors of the community and any curtailment ultimately will have the most detrimental effect on those who cannot afford cars and depend on it for getting around. A person can make the argument that the employees are only striking out of self-interest rather than concern for people who are deprived of the service, who knows the answer to that for sure if the media only report that they are striking but tell us little more. Obviously, the workers do have a self interest motive, everyone who loses a job would, but the wider public should be concerned about the curtailment of a service. Their redundancy will be the statutory one as it is a public service job.
We saw last week that remedial teacher services had been hit with cut backs and the effect this will have on schools. Again, economics over needs.
Several local authorities have let go staff who were on contract, in what exact areas I don’t know but lay-offs none the less.
Like I said in my earlier post, I am quite prepared to take a cut in my pay as I should not be immune to the effects of the current economic difficulties, and I am not alone in that. Any one that I have spoken to in the public sector on the current arguments say the same.
We are concerned and object to our pension being used as a stick to beat us with. During the ‘Tiger’ years, in all the pay negotiations, we were constantly told that the benefit of our pension was to be considered when new deals were struck and so our pay increases were never in line with inflation. That’s the way it was and now that the recession has hit, this same stick is being used against us again and we know that once this levy comes in then it will stay for life.
I would much rather take a pay cut knowing that when the economy turns again then a reinstatement can be considered. Changes to the tax regime should be considered also so that everyone will contribute according to their salary regardless of whether they are public or private sector.
I resent the way the media has turned the country’s economic difficulties in to a Public versus Private sector. This sudden and unjustified divisiveness is unwarranted as the Public sector has not denied it has to make sacrifices, that’s a given. This conflict is drawing the attention away from the problems and those who created them. I feel that I and my colleagues am being blamed and vilified for something which I did not cause and demonized through no fault of our own. Let us take the hit, the private sector is doing so, but please stop making it look like we consider ourselves above all this and distant form any trouble because we are not and we know it.thedarkroom wrote:
Hi Graham,
First of all I am very conscious of the fact that it is extremely unlikely that I will ever be made redundant because I work in the public service, I know that that is a privileged position in itself and is a benefit in kind. That security is not a certainty but it is unlikely. However, across the public service in general, that security is not guaranteed.
Dublin Bus is a case in point. I don’t work there, I don’t even use the bus, but my taxes (aswell as every other tax payer, public or private) does subsidize it and I think that it’s proper. I don’t think that it should be a requirement that Dublin Bus should be profitable because it is a public service available to all sectors of the community and any curtailment ultimately will have the most detrimental effect on those who cannot afford cars and depend on it for getting around. A person can make the argument that the employees are only striking out of self-interest rather than concern for people who are deprived of the service, who knows the answer to that for sure if the media only report that they are striking but tell us little more. Obviously, the workers do have a self interest motive, everyone who loses a job would, but the wider public should be concerned about the curtailment of a service. Their redundancy will be the statutory one as it is a public service job.
We saw last week that remedial teacher services had been hit with cut backs and the effect this will have on schools. Again, economics over needs.
Several local authorities have let go staff who were on contract, in what exact areas I don’t know but lay-offs none the less.
Like I said in my earlier post, I am quite prepared to take a cut in my pay as I should not be immune to the effects of the current economic difficulties, and I am not alone in that. Any one that I have spoken to in the public sector on the current arguments say the same.
We are concerned and object to our pension being used as a stick to beat us with. During the ‘Tiger’ years, in all the pay negotiations, we were constantly told that the benefit of our pension was to be considered when new deals were struck and so our pay increases were never in line with inflation. That’s the way it was and now that the recession has hit, this same stick is being used against us again and we know that once this levy comes in then it will stay for life.
I would much rather take a pay cut knowing that when the economy turns again then a reinstatement can be considered. Changes to the tax regime should be considered also so that everyone will contribute according to their salary regardless of whether they are public or private sector.
I resent the way the media has turned the country’s economic difficulties in to a Public versus Private sector. This sudden and unjustified divisiveness is unwarranted as the Public sector has not denied it has to make sacrifices, that’s a given. This conflict is drawing the attention away from the problems and those who created them. I feel that I and my colleagues am being blamed and vilified for something which I did not cause and demonized through no fault of our own. Let us take the hit, the private sector is doing so, but please stop making it look like we consider ourselves above all this and distant form any trouble because we are not and we know it.All good stuff, but would still like to know WHEN and WHAT?
We can debate the finer points forever, but what do you believe the PS should agree to?
PS Contract workers are not PS employees and therefore do not come under lay offs. they do however buffer the employees from lay-offs. :wink:
Darkroom I am not trying to vilify the public sector although i would say that some public sector employees
do a good job of that themselves.
With reference to your point on Dublin Bus and profitability, I disagree. As tax payers I do not agree that we should subsidise a company that
does generate revenue but does it badly and incurs losses. Also based on what I have heard in the media, the proposed route cuts are on routes
that under used and or that have far too many buses servicing them. To me that just makes sense. I do not see a valid argument for paying a driver
to drive a bus with nobody on it.On the face of it this is a clear case of a public sector body burying it’s head in stand and ignoring the reality of the situation. When I was told this morning
I was to be let go I did not just walk out the office and say that sales figures my boss presented me with were nonsense. Of course I didn’t. That would be foolish, yet it appears that this exactly what the Public Sector ( in general I take the point there are exemptions ) is doing. It is closing it eyes, putting it’s fingers in it’s ears and singing nah nah nah nah nah nah.kenh wrote:
All good stuff, but would still like to know WHEN and WHAT?
We can debate the finer points forever, but what do you believe the PS should agree to?
PS Contract workers are not PS employees and therefore do not come under lay offs. they do however buffer the employees from lay-offs. :wink:
I wish I knew the answer to WHEN and WHAT but the sooner the better so that we can move on and the hit should be based on pay levels, not a standard across the board. Protect the lower paid and hit the higher (I’m neither of those two) As it stands, I expect my take home to be down about 9% between the pension levy and the other earlier levy. Like I said previously, I would rather take that hit as a pay cut instead of the pension levy for the reason stated earlier.
I know what you’re saying about the contract workers. A cynical move as it means that the lay offs don’t register on the radar as Public Sector but add to the jobless figures. Because of this, the perception is that there are no PS layoffs and the statistics are misquoted to feed the arguments. At the end of the day, the dole queue is the dole queue, regardless off which sector they come from. My own son is there and the irony of that is that now that he is back living at home with me, my wage is being taken in to account to assess his allowance.
thedarkroom wrote:
kenh wrote:
All good stuff, but would still like to know WHEN and WHAT?
We can debate the finer points forever, but what do you believe the PS should agree to?
PS Contract workers are not PS employees and therefore do not come under lay offs. they do however buffer the employees from lay-offs. :wink:
I wish I knew the answer to WHEN and WHAT but the sooner the better so that we can move on and the hit should be based on pay levels, not a standard across the board. Protect the lower paid and hit the higher (I’m neither of those two) As it stands, I expect my take home to be down about 9% between the pension levy and the other earlier levy. Like I said previously, I would rather take that hit as a pay cut instead of the pension levy for the reason stated earlier.
I know what you’re saying about the contract workers. A cynical move as it means that the lay offs don’t register on the radar as Public Sector but add to the jobless figures. Because of this, the perception is that there are no PS layoffs and the statistics are misquoted to feed the arguments. At the end of the day, the dole queue is the dole queue, regardless off which sector they come from. My own son is there and the irony of that is that now that he is back living at home with me, my wage is being taken in to account to assess his allowance.
Your last paragraph scares me – my son is now on the dole, back home and part of my tax situation again :cry:
Unfortunately you sound like one of the silent PS majority, who do recognise the writing on the wall. It’s rare that the freeloaders bother to try and
argue their case!Oh dear..from reading the way this thread seems to be heading, it seems to me that the PD’s could well have a resurgence soon.
Sorry to hear about the redundancy Graham, but it seems to me that your anger would be better directed at the politicians and bankers that got us into this mess than at drivers on Dublin Bus.
It seems to me that people are just ready to buy into the whole lie. Everything is about profit and bottom line.
That is exactly why we are in this situation in my book.
Excuse me Ken..can you clarify something? Are you calling Darkroom a freeloader because he works for the public service?
Expresbro wrote:
Excuse me Ken..can you clarify something? Are you calling Darkroom a freeloader because he works for the public service?
Quite the opposite Rob – I am saying that darkroom is an example of the some PS employees who are realists – BUT it’s the freeloaders who react to
reality by looking to strike first, and not accept the concept of reductions.People like darkroom and us in the private sector carry these freeloaders!
Ah okay.. I obviously misread that.
Can’t say I agree with your concept of freeloaders though. To me, the freeloaders are the guys who were giving themselves multi million euro bonuses when the company is close to collapse or the developers who have foreign bank accounts bulging with the profits they took from the so called Celtic Tiger years and are now playing dead.
But it seems to me the old Divide and Conquer ploy is hard at work again.
Expresbro wrote:
Excuse me Ken..can you clarify something? Are you calling Darkroom a freeloader because he works for the public service?
Hey Robbie, are you trying to stir things up. Don’t worry Ken, I’m a realist and I know edges are getting a bit frayed all round with current tensions. I have never been made redundant so as much as I might sympathise, I can never really know what it’s like so I’m not taking offense at any of the remarks.
On another slightly off track note… someone earlier in the thread referred to the fact that it was not us that caused this, it was the politicians and then Robbie referred to the PD’d possibly making a resurgence. The current government are ultimately responsible for this situation for various reasons.
What I want to know is this? If they made such a mess and got us in to this, do you trust them with our finances to get us out of it? They’ve had their chance with our money and look what’s happened. I would rather have anyone else in control of my wallet considering they are responsible for cleaning it out thus far. If you worked in the credit union, would you let the bank robber restock the tills? (Notice I said Credit Union, not Bank. I can see that they are the future for my banking needs) I would rather have anyone else other than the current lot.
Don’t forget that the current Taoiseach is the previous Minister for Finance when Bertie was in charge, that was when the seeds were set for the current disaster. Over several budgets, Lenihan was warned by several EU bodies that what he was doing was folly but he dismissed their advice because he knew better. Now look at us!
I want their hands off my money. However who is left?? I know we have tough times ahead and more cuts and so on but I don’t want them doing it, anyone but Fianna Fail. As for the Greens?? Independents?? Jackie Healy Rae?? I despair!
Robbie I am perfectly aware that the bulk of our problems have been caused by politicians and bankers.
However what I was saying about Dublin Bus was an example of how some in the Public Sector react to a crisis.
The fact of the matter is that it will be people like you and me that feel the brunt of the recession. The majority of
public sector employees will feel a pinch in their wallets but their jobs are secure and will always be.
In relation to Mr.Darkroom I do respect him for his views. He does appear to be an exception to the public servant rule and I admire him for that.
In relation to Ken’s ” free loader ” comment. There are free loaders in every walk of life however I do believe the public sector has a higher concentration. Trust me Robbie, we don’t the half of what goes on and probably never will.Oh and some mentioned contractors in the public sector being let go. Well I know of at least twenty ( they work with me ) contractors who were stationed in government buildings that were let go. The government released them from contract and my employer could not afford to keep them on. They were not public sector employees they were private. In this particular instance that I have direct involvement in, the less qualified and better paid public sector employees are still in their jobs.
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