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Rangefinder ?
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My search for simplification, and that of a smaller camera have brought me to consider a rangefinder.. but I don’t know anything about them, and only slightly more about film :)
My forays into my photography have been all digital thus far, and I find myself craving simplification more and more, along with a growing desire to get off the equipment roundabout..
At this point for me, I want to explore the craft (pre-visualisation, exploration of subject, et al) of my photography more than the pursuit of technical excellence ..and am currently pondering over either a Voigtlander Bessa R, or a second hand Leica..
To be honest am quite new to this and unsure which is really the one for me.. If there are any rangefinder users among the many film afficionadoes here , I welcome your thoughts
..and before this becomes another ‘what camera’ thread, I should really note most of my subjects are mainly people, lowlight, travel, and some architecture. I’m not a stranger to prime lenses, and prefer cameras with a small footprint, and intend shooting solely black and white with whatever rangefinder I end up with..
Oh, and I’m very seriously considering shooting solely with whatever I choose, for at least 12 months,
Damien
I love rangefinder cameras. It is a whole new experience compared to DSLR. The only digital options are the Leica M8 which is pretty expensive particularly when you have to buy lenses. The options for film are better. Voigtlander make great cameras and lenses at reasonable prices. Check out this site for general info. The section on Classic Camera Profiles is an excellent source of info.
http://www.cameraquest.com/index.htm
If you have a moderate budget €1000 – 1500 you could pick up a decent Leica M6 and a couple of lenses.
Also check out the Leica Forum:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/index.php?s=4e53150e7eb0ed8e19340d52aa79cbe5
Funnilly enough was looking into the same thing recently. Came across some good websites (most Leica based, but some have bit on Voigtlander and Nikon rangefinders)
http://www.halfhill.com/leica2.html
http://justinlow.com/articles/leica-buyers-guide#cpreview
http://www.antiquecameras.net/leicamcameras.html
Something like a M3 or M4 and a 50mm f2.00 seems like the ideal introduction. Can’t get much more back to basic than it. M6 has a built in light meter, but that’s just decadent! Voigtlander do a M mount rangefinder too.
Lots of adverts in most recent Amateur Photographer with trade prices. Lots on ebay too, might be risky though. Minty ones go for huge money, but perfectly working examples, but a with a few dints and cosmetic scratches go for a lot less. CLA (clean,lube,adjust) essential, so get one that has had a recent service or budget getting it done (diy link here: http://www.jumboprawn.net/jesse/cams/gear-profiles/leica-m2-overhaul/leica-m2-overhaul.html ).
Another option might be to get a manual SLR to go with your existing lenses. I got a cheap Nikon FM2 on ebay a while back, stuck on my 50mm 1.8 and loaded it up with Velvia 50. Really enjoy using it. Fully manual except for one battery for light meter and if that goes you can keep shooting anyway. Nikon G lenses won’t work on it though (as no aperature ring).
To add my experience to the posts above….
I shoot mostly with a rangefinder these days. I have a Bessa R3A and a Bessa R4A, but I’m selling the R3A as the viewfinder doesn’t suit someone with glasses, which I sometimes wear.
I love my R4A, with a 35mm lens, if I had nothing else I would be happy with that. I will get a second body (not sure yet what type) as I like to have night (1600) as well as day film loaded.For new cameras, as far as I know, 3 rangefinder brands (35mm film) are available:
the Voitlaender Bessa (comes in different flavours R2M, R2A, R3A etc), Zeiss Ikon, and the Leica.
The Bessa’s are the cheapest, then Zeiss Ikon and then the Leica, the creme de la creme.For digital Leica M8 if you have the cash, and Epson have released an upgrade to their digital rangefinder, RD-1x, but that may only be available in Japan and the sensor is old and hasn’t been upgraded.
Then there is tons of secondhand stuff. M-mount compatible rangefinders are probably most useful for lenses available.
I really only know about the camera and lenses I have, all the info I got was from rangefinderforum.com
From all I’ve read Leica (lenses & cameras) are the best but there are some “poor man’s” choices that which can deliver at a fraction of the cost.
I recently did my first holiday (to HK) with only film rangefinder, jettisoning the security of digital with its zoom and lcd previews. I was very happy with the results.
Good luck!Martin
Thanks for the tips & links – just working my way through them now!
Guthrij – I’m probably looking at a budget of a grand or so, dependant on sale of a few bits and pieces – would you have any recommendations if I were to go the Leica route ? I’m still familiarising myself with the ins and outs of rangefinders, and welcome any recommendations for what will be my first rangefinder.
David – appreciate the links, and must admit coming from the all singing, all automated DSLR way, the idea of photographic simplification is both an appealing one, but also filled with a bit of trepidation. There are a few things I’m not sure if I can manage without, such as a meter..
Martin – nice set of shots. The digital route seems a little pricey for me at the moment, and am considering a film rangefinder & single lens. Pre-visualistion, stripping things back to the bone, and doing my own B&W developing are the highest on my list of priorities at the moment. Camera-wise, if I plunge right in (which I am favouring), I’m looking at one of the Bessa bodies (R3M), or maybe a Leica M6 (over an M3 purely for the meter), and pairing either with a fast 35/ 40mm lens. I was looking at an R3M, but what would you be selling your R3A for, and would this be body-only, as I may be interested should you find yourself near Dublin
In all, the most appealing thing about rangefinders for me are the size, lack of mirror black-out, and ability to use both your eyes when shooting, most appealing. I’d like to dive in with film first, and potentially with digital later. I’ve been trying to work on my pre-visualisation and shot composition with a small DSLR and 50mm equiv. prime, but the size of the set-up, the viewfinder, and the option-overload with modern cameras are the things I would like to get away from..
Damien
Damien,
Sorry but I won’t be in Dublin for a couple of months, I’ll probably have it sold by then. I mentioned I was selling it more in relation to it not being good for me with glasses.The 2-eye open thing is a feature of the R3A or R3M with its 1:1 viewfinder, but only if you are right-eyed (I’m left-eyed).
When I bought the R3A I didn’t know what I would use in terms of focal length, but I’ve found that 35mm is my normal and in some situations I like to have a 21mm (although I struggle with the perspective distortion with the 21mm). For that reason the R4A is better for me as it has 35mm and 21mm frame lines.
You can use a 35mm lens on the R3M/A, its about the full view in the viewfinder, even though it’s not designed for use with 35mm. But anything wider would be a problem.I got into this for much the same reasons as you, simplicity to work on composition, and size, although my desire for low-light lenses has negated that. I’m not sure that manually focussing is a plus but I’m getting used to it.
Martin
You could think about a medium format rangefinder…
Fuji have a new folder coming out just around now,
though it looks like more money than your budget-
it might also be a bit heavier than you might like-http://www.1854.eu/cameras/fujifilm/
http://www.japanexposures.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=GF670&x=0&y=0
There are others, also by Fuji, and by Mamiya-
but they’re non folders, and will be slightly larger-Look for Fuji gw, or gs, or gsw, and Mamiya 6 or 7.
Also have a look at http://www.rangefinderforum.com
The CV Bessa range is a good way to get into fairly decent rangefinders without breaking the bank too much. I have a R4A along with color-skopar 35mm and color-skopar 21mm lenses. The R4A has frame lines for the 21mm which is nice as there is no need to use an external viewfinder.
The A versions also have aperture priority mode so it is a nice bridge to the fully manual camera if you are coming from an auto-everything DSLR.
A pet hate of mine with the Bessa though is the placement of the strap lugs. They are designed to give proper weight distribution when using a long lens but when using the “ultra compact” color-skopars, the camera just won’t sit right when on the strap. This has nothing to do with the optical results but drives me absolutely mental!!!
Another route into rangefinders is through the 1960s/70s era fixed lens cameras along the lines of the Olympus 35 RC, Canon Canonet or Yashica Electro 35. I have an Olympus 35 RC and love it. It has fully manual and shutter priority modes and has a nice 40mm Zuiko f/2.8 lens on it. The only problem with these is that it may be difficult to get the original batteries for them (in places where mercury is frowned upon) and the 21st century replacements are not as good. (battery adapters are available but I have not ran out of mercury batteries yet so have no experience with them). Also the lenses are not changeable so you have to make do with what you have. However, this fit in with your plan to simplify.
But one day, when win the lottery, I will buy a Leica.
davedunne wrote:
A pet hate of mine with the Bessa though is the placement of the strap lugs. They are designed to give proper weight distribution when using a long lens but when using the “ultra compact” color-skopars, the camera just won’t sit right when on the strap. This has nothing to do with the optical results but drives me absolutely mental!!!
The optional “side grip” for the bessa will alleviate this problem considerably, and also make holding the camera more comfortable. A real improvement. But of course it’s annoying to have to buy an extra for what should be standard.
Martin
If you get one of the models without a meter, get a Voigtlander VC meter to clip onto the camera:
http://www.cameraquest.com/voivcmet.htm
Hi Martin – no worries. The R4A sounds intriguing – the wide-angle Bessa I believe
JB7 – the Mamiya sounds quite interesting I honestly hadn’t considered medium format until you mentioned it. I’m just reading up on it a bit now – nice camera by all means. The smaller form factor, and faster lenses (I’m an available light guy) of a 35mm RF may suit my needs better, I think. The Mamiya makes an interesting 2nd cam to consider though.. and the new Fuji too.. and the Xpan :)
Dave – was considering the fixed lens RF as a way to dip my toe in, and considered a Canonet with a 40mm lens. The mercury battery situation made me hesitate a little, although I believe you can use other batteries, or even have the voltage changed during a CLA to take newer batteries with no issue.
David – saw those meters too.. I guess losing a hot-shoe spirit level from a camera previously has made me reluctant to go the hot shoe accessory route again :)
Damien
Fintan was selling his Mamiya 6 Rangefinder a while back but I’m not sure if its still available. It’s in mint condition and very good value for what he is asking.
https://www.photographyireland.net/viewtopic.php?p=172867&highlight=mamiya#172867
I have the 7 version and love it.
The larger form factor more than makes up for having to use faster film- when you need to-
you won’t be needing to magnify the film as much to achieve the same enlargement,
and for the times you can use slower film,
the difference will be enormous-This is especially true of the larger formats,
particularly the Fuji 6×9…Sinead here (Jessthespringer) likes using fast film in her 6×6,
and still achieves good tonality even at iso 3200…I use a little Olympus XA as a pocket camera,
(a really good little rangefinder, nice lens, although the retrofocus design does dim towards the edges)
and although it has an ƒ/2.8 lens, even 400iso isn’t fast enough for a lot of Irish light.One other advantage (disadvantage?) of the larger formats is that the number of frames per roll is far smaller-
36 xp on 35mm is often too many for the variety of lighting conditions you come across;
with 8, 12, or 16 frames per roll, depending on format, you can tailor your film to the lighting conditions much more quickly.Some cameras allow the use of 220 film,
allowing double the amount of exposures if you need it.Some of the lenses on the Mamiya 7 are among the best in the world, according to those who use and test them,
though I don’t have experience of them myself, unfortunately.Zoltan (Randomway) has one, perhaps he can chime in…
joseph
Don’t discount the Contax G range.
I have a nifty little Contax G1, can be manual, or autofocus, and the lenses are superb.
The G2 has an option of a zoom lens.These can be picked up fairly reasonably second hand these days.
My G1 doesn’t get out as often as it should these days, but I’m hoping to change that this summer.
There are plenty of reviews , resources on the web for these cameras – well worth a look.
Rgds
Kevin
Hi Joseph – you make some good points about the Mamiya. Still too chunky for the stealth missions I have planned, but maybe the next rangefinder I will take a peek at.
Kevin – very interested to hear anything you have to say on the Contax front. I must admit I am craving the manual simplicity of something like a Leica/ Bessa, but am keeping an open mind, and have come across some very good things in relation to the G1/ G2. Rangefinders are new to me, and as much as I read, I feel there’s so much I haven’t picked up on yet – can you give me an idea of how the Contax differs from the Bessa’s/ Leica’s I’ve been looking at, and maybe what it was that drew you to the Contax,
Damien
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