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Sports Photographers Wanted
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Unless extratime.ie change their business plan and business model, no one will ever make money from them. While they have the potential to generate revenue, they don’t.
I can see no logic in shooting for them, for free. You can gain just as much experience shooting football in your local park, for your local team. The two differences to LOI though – it’s not under floodlights, and it’s not in a stadium. Publicity for the LOI, and bringing people through the gate will not, in any way, generate revenue for the photographer from extratime. Their business model is not geared towards making any money.
Extratime don’t control who can or can’t shoot at any event. They simply have to apply for accreditation like everyone else, especially for international events. Extratime certainly can’t promise to get you in.
From looking at last season, there only seems to be 2-3 photographers who are willing to provide images for free. I can understand their logic of trying to get free photos. It makes sense. But, it does nothing at all for the photographer.
Many of the LOI clubs you listed already have club photographers or local shooters who would gladly also provide to extratime, if there was any sort of payment. No one is looking to get rich, but at the same time, no one wants to be taken as a mug.
Free won’t pay for your insurance (are extratime going to cover insurance while you’re shooting for them, or do they even check that you have valid insurance (gear and PL). Free won’t pay for your camera gear either.
And if you knew anything about how a newspaper or website function, then you’d know we do have control over who gets Accreditation for International matches.
I do know alittle about it funny enough. You have no control over accreditation for international football you simply apply like the rest and you may include some extra names in the email nothing more nothing less..
What I finding annoying about this whole request is that over the years I have learned that alot of people just dont value photographers. Ive learned to live with that after all they are Journalists, Editors and sometimes just general folk and to them photographers are just down the food chain. But whats shameful about this is that you yourself are a photographer, you should know the ammount of work, time and money that goes into sport photography and yet you want a guy/gal to do it for nothing… Not even that tenner, that so shocked you as a token gesture so they could say well aleast IM NOT WORKING FOR NOTHING!
extratime.ie does not make money, Well a business that does not make money is just a hobby..
Hi Andy, I have been looking at this thread for the last few days and wondering whether to reply or not…obviously you are trying to get free photos for something but I have’nt quite worked out what for yet. You made lots of assertions and many claims in your various answers and Paul and others rightly pointed out where you are wrong. Something that did annoy me was your statement “Personally, I learned nothing from photographing under-age soccer, as the action is always during the day and isn’t fast enough to challenge a photographer” thats such a silly statement and really the clincher when it came to replying to you….some of my best work working as a now full-time sports and photojournalist has been taken at under-age soccer games and only recently I finished near the top in a national photo competition with a shot from an U-11 soccer match. Sport is sport and action is action and I would urge anyone interested in sports photography to go along to their local under-age games to gain valuable experiance.
Shooting at night under floodlights does’nt make you a better photographer…it only means you have the pro cameras with fast lenses. I agree with Paul, offering your work for free will do you no good, if you want to see your work on a website set up your own…they can be done really cheaply through Clikpic and many other places.
To get into any international match you have to apply for accreditation like the rest of us and extratime.ie will not be able to guarantee you that. Sorry Andy if a lot of the feedback sound negative but its tough out there trying to earn a living and if there was any hope of getting a few bob from you I would be all for people applying but sadly NO.Noel Browne.
No to mention the Ads on the site are bound to be bringing in revenue – prob not much – but some – pass it on to the photographers
When did you hear extratime is a business?
however it is a tough business to break into and to break the duopoly of sportsfile and inpho.
Cheers
I just took it for granted with the above that you classed yourselves as a business
Id be very interested in knowing how you are going to break the duopoly of the big two. Since they are photo agencies with some of Irelands leading sport photographers and extratime seems to be more on the match report side of things and not even a business.. And is not willing to pay for any of its images. Prehaps if you had a feature match each week and paid for a good freelance photographer a few quid for some top class images and took it from there by getting the images into the media, then yourself getting paid and then funding another photographer it could grow to say haveing 4/5 photographers getting a bit of money and in turn giving you better images thus creating more turnover its a long road … but the road you are going on at this time is doomed for failure on the photo end of things . And every photographer knows its the image that sells the paper after all who really remembers what they read about a game in a week from when they read it.. A good image has a lastin effect. or you could just tellme I know nothing….As a amature photographer this looked to be a good opportunity, as I want gain experience in all forms of photography. After reading this thread over the past day or two, I’m now in two minds. I would have no problem doing a job for free if I was some one’s understudy, as I would see the knowledge gained from that person as a form of compensation for my time and use of equipment. I would feel better about a situation like this, if I was given anything as payment ( even a euro) then I would feel as if I was earning a fair amount for my level of experience and quality of work. As they say “you get what you pay for”, if you want top quality work, you pay top rates to a pro, if you want a bargain you pay cheap rates to a novice and get work of lesser quality.
Another way I see it is, If I’m going to a car show I usually bring my camera gear and spend the day happy snapping away, I would do this anyway if I was getting paid or not, because cars are a major passion of mine. I would also post the results on various forums for other enthusiasts to enjoy (hopefully :lol:). I would also allow a certain car blog site to use my work for free, as I know the founder who runs the site in his spare time and makes no profit from it, he is also a photographer.
If I was going to a football match I would bring my camera if I was allowed in with it. I would also post the results on various photography forums. If extratime is not making a profit from my work, I should have no problem with them using my work. If my work was good maybe someone who would be willing to pay me might see my work and contact me.My main problem is, I don’t want to be contributing to the problems pros have finding paying work, but if a site is not going to be paying anyway, am I really taking work away from pros.
I hope that made sense, it took me long enough to type it :lol:
“but if a site is not going to be paying anyway, am I really taking work away from pros”
yes, is the simple answer, if one site gets away with it then another site that normally pays will follow suit.As you said if you were mentored in return then it would be cool but this is not happening and further more you are putting those potential mentors livelihood at risk. When there are no serious pros pushing the boundary who are you going to learn from?
I am not really that biased here, I am not a sports or wedding photographer, two areas that are under great strain due to amateurs jumping in for free, but I do see the problem with this situation. I hope the amateur shooters here take this into consideration before offering free work in the future.
Jonnyp16v wrote:
I would feel better about a situation like this, if I was given anything as payment ( even a euro) then I would feel as if I was earning a fair amount for my level of experience and quality of work. As they say “you get what you pay for”, if you want top quality work, you pay top rates to a pro, if you want a bargain you pay cheap rates to a novice and get work of lesser quality.
The thing is, even sports shooters (like me) don’t want large sums for the images that extratime want. A token amount would be more than fine, to cover our costs for some games.
I do a lot of sports photography. The vast amount of money I make from my photography comes from sport. I don’t earn a whole lot from it, but at the same time, I won’t provide my images for free, unless it’s worth something to me. At the very start, I wouldn’t give images for free. But, if someone couldn’t pay, I would see what they could offer me in exchange. It’s not always about the money, it’s more about the fact that I won’t be taken as a push over. I value what I do. I value my time, my equipment, my costs (travel, insurance, food, etc).
extratime has great business potential. They don’t try to compete with the agencies (Inpho/Sportsfile). They don’t need to. They simply want to grow their own site. They are rated as the top football site in Ireland, and rightly so. But, most of this is done on the back of people giving their time for free – the reporters and photographers. Ok, so they have very very limited photography coverage (hence threads like this). For the reporters, I can see their logic in working for free, because it does advance them. I can’t see any logic for the photographers though.
I would know the majority of photographers who supply to extratime, and they know me. I’ll speak my mind, and they know they can talk to me too. I meet them at many events and many I knew before I started shooting sport. I have respect for them as photographers. But, they will also admit that supplying images to extratime doesn’t really get them anywhere.
If someone wants to learn about sports photography, I have no problem helping people. I have brought a number of photographers to games before, and helped them and given them advice. I enjoy my photography and I like helping others learn too.
But, you will not learn anything through extratime, aside from the culture that photography is not worth money. No one will accompany you on a shoot. No one will show you what to capture, how to capture it, what settings to use, etc. You are expected to know already or else learn on your own.
I am NOT against extratime, I think it’s a brilliant site. But,they need to value what they have – they have the potential to be revenue generating and to pay (a small fee) towards photographers and reporters. I still can’t work out why they haven’t tried to advance their business (and the website privacy policy refers to it as a business).
just to throw my two cents in for what it’s worth, a couple of years ago whilst in college studying TV production I decided I wanted to concentrate on camera work, I approached my local club Bray Wanderers and asked if they’d let me film some matches as a way of gaining experience, they said yes and so i went along with camera and tri pod and filmed games, at some games I was asked to film particular players by the coaching staff so they could show the players the footage and use it as a teaching aid in training, my footage was also used as highlight footage a couple of times on TV, I did all of this for free as I was a student and learning bundles by doing so plus fleshing out my cv, I now work as a camera op and think this experience was invaluable in helping get me where I am, whilst there I also sometimes photographed games again for free but would show the players the images I took on my laptop and some of them would buy prints. If anyone wants to learn how to photograph sports there is no harm in doing as others have said and going to the local park to photograph games there but if you want the shooting under flood lights experiene why not do as I did and use some initiative and go to your local LOI club and ask can you shoot for practice.
oh and before anyone questions if I was taking work from a pro camera op by working for free it might be worth knowing that Bray where considered such an inconsequential team that often I was the only camera op or photographer at the games, the local paper wouldn’t even send a photographer but instead rely on the club photographer and I made sure not to step on his toes.
I’m in two minds about this interesting thread. On one hand, I’m saying “If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys” & yet on the other hand, I’m not against people who submit their shots for free to a site like Extratime while gaining experience.
I submit some of my shots to various sites without charging for their use. (PI & Yahoo for example) & they don’t charge me for their use either (at least, not yet :lol: ). A big thing for any amateur photographer is getting work published & being accredited with it. Extratime does accredit the photographers work & for me, I wouldn’t have a problem with their use of images submitted.
I don’t think their use of images is taking from the pro photographers in any way & would certainly not condone it if they were. Sometimes I think pro photographers want a monopoly on any type of photography.
We are not all in it for the money.i have been reading this thread.
I can see both sides of the coin. I think the idea of a bunch of people who are keen on irish football can produce a great site, like whats happening with extratime. and fair play to the people involved. I do think at some point it has the potential to generate income at some point in time. Like lots of websites it might not from the start have funding to get going. I know lots of people start sites with no real funding behind it etc which eventually generates money and the people involved then see dividends.
I can also see the side from photographers not wanting to give their images for free. although i dont think any of us could say we have never given an image for free.
there is a longer term issue though, that with more and more people getting into photography and the proliferation of social media outlets. more and more people will produce images for little or no cost for these types of websites and outlets
there are lots of photographers here who do earn a little from their photography, who still work fulltime and have that salary to support their lifestyle, who are still undercutting or taking work from fulltime pros. i know of some members here who do charge considerably less than the pros do, but have been keen to complain about people giving images for free etc and that work is being taken from pros.
When it comes down to it, the industry of photography is changing. certain types of photography are diminishing as markets for photographers to earn a living from.
the other question to ask here is whats the difference between giving images for free and selling images for way less than what the pros ear. i dont see any difference.
the other question to ask here is whats the difference between giving images for free and selling images for way less than what the pros ear. i dont see any difference.
There is a huge difference photographers are not running a cartel . If one photographer charges less than another all well and good . If I value my time at 30 euros an hr and another values their time at 150 an hr so be it.. this thread is more to do it an established web site looking for images for free, They are not looking for cheap images but free, and thats just a step to far for some people
Like your business some will pay for really good frames for their images that cost alot and some will walk into a euro store and buy one for €3.99 .. but both still pay…..
When it comes down to it, the industry of photography is changing. certain types of photography are diminishing as markets for photographers to earn a living from.
This I do agree with and sport photography is one of them…
actually photographers are basically running a cartell (particularly in sports) there are 2 companies in the country that control 90% of the business
and what i am saying is that there is no difference between a photog giving images for free and those giving images for a very small percentage of the going rate. if its about supporting the industry, both are doing as much damage
on the frames side as you mentioned its quite the same there are people doing work for way way less than the going rate, to the point that someone like me who actually does cost out what it cost to make the framer (ie figure in time etc) just cant compete with. and i am not just talking about small one man bands, there is a very large framing company in ireland selling stuff for less than most framers can buy it.
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