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Technical perfection vs emotional buy-in
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Hope we’re not going to see any valentines day love-in’s going on here fellas :wink:
On a serious notes – its good to see a number of detailed and considered contributions here. It seems there is a reasonable concensus
Allintheminds 6 point criteria seem pretty good to me.
You’re right Andy – it is very difficult to say why an image ‘doesn’t do it for me’. Although I guess the art of critique is also to help on a technical basis as well.
It’s very true that we can easily get bogged down in technical discussions – after all, these are easily quantifiable where aesthetic concerns are not.
There is, however, a difference between editorial photography (which can certainly be artistic) and artistic photography (that is photographs taken for art’s sake alone). A masterful editorial image can be technically imperfect, as it is frequently taken under non-ideal circumstances – a fleeting instant glimpsed out of the corner of the eye and shot instinctively, or one where the photographer him/herself is being shot at. These situations don’t lend themselves to figuring out perfect exposure, optimal shutter speeds or getting the right depth of field. This often doesn’t matter as the technical imperfections lend a sense of urgency to the image that reflects the environment at the time, and the subject of the image often has such strong impact that such imperfections are overlooked (or indeed, appropriate).
On the other foot, the purely artistic photograph should always strive for technical perfection. It is more often than not the case that the photographer is at leisure to get the exact image they want and have plenty of time to apply the tools of the trade to get the best possible image technically, as well as aesthetically.
Is the aesthetic nature of an image more important than the technical? Absolutely. I tell my students that a good image poorly taken is far better than a bad image, well taken.
My point is that we should all be our own worst critics, and when criticising others’ work it is our responsibility to praise the good things in an image while pointing out the flaws. Otherwise, why bother posting for critique? Someone who is learning the craft needs the guidance when they make a technical mistake.
Technical perfection can only add to an image’s impact. If it’s not possible to achieve, by all means take the shot. But where it is possible it should be striven for.
Cheers,
PeterQuote Petrer “Is the aesthetic nature of an image more important than the technical? Absolutely. I tell my students that a good image poorly taken is far better than a bad image, well taken. “
Same here, I say “I would rather look at a badly taken interesting photograph, than a perfectly taken boring one”.
Si
the purely artistic photograph should always strive for technical perfection
Surely that assumes that every artist values technical perfection as something worth striving for, which is far from what all artists aim for. Artists love breaking rules and always have done, most of them experiment with colour, composition and thrive on discovering new things by accident rather than rigidly following formulaic guidelines; there’s plenty of examples where the so called rules of have been thrown out the window to great effect in music, photography, fine art, etc.
I agree with you, people need to be taught the basic principles.
But once learned the teacher has to acknowledge that the student may not be willing to follow a prescribed path.
The basic principles aren’t that hard to learn, what is hard to learn is how to express yourself through a medium in a way that’s uniquely yours.
I’m not even convinced you even can teach someone how to do that, it’s something they have to learn for themselves.I tell my students that a good image poorly taken is far better than a bad image, well taken.
That’s very subjective though, and while being a nice soundbite it’s still actually quite vague. It not only depends on what one person’s idea of a good or bad image is, it also depends on how others value the opinion of the person making the decision as to what constitutes good and bad.
However it does frustrate me no end when images that technically and compositionally don’t work and with poor content gets the “I like your picture. Well done” response.
That’s just politness, and it’s not as bad here as it is on Flickr with all its ‘wowness’ and ‘awesomeness’.
I think, to stay sane, you have to find just a couple of people who’s opinion you value and go by that.
take everything else with a pinch of sulphur.I think people sometimes take the easy way out by focusing purely on technical which is far easier for them to comment on
I think people take the easy way out by not commenting at all, Andy…something I’m guilty of far too often.
Agree with you though, pointing out technical flaws can be tiresome to do as well as to read over and over again.
Perhaps there could be some non-obligatory standard format for commenting on images as per Si’s list.1. Overall Image Impact #/10
2. Visual Awareness #/10
3. Technical Expertise #/10
4. Artistic Merit #/10
5. Originality #/10Scoring of critique images is something I would strongly oppose.
Our photography comes down to more than just marks out of 10 on a report card. It might also turn this place into some kind of competitive battleground. It could also put people off posting more experimental images. Images that are a bit of an aquired taste for instance.
I think a list could certainly be used as a reminder about what we should be commenting on. But I personally like the idea that everyone can critique in their own style and structure.
I think we just have to remember that there is more to critique than technicals and we should sometimes make more of an effort.
Andy
Mick –
I agree with you that if a student decides to deliberately break the rules and arrives at a satisfying (to them, if not to others) result, more power to them.there’s plenty of examples where the so called rules of have been thrown out the window to great effect in music, photography, fine art, etc
I totally agree. However, the rules (and I agree that is a bad name – guidelines would be more appropriate) exist for good reason. While I agree that excellent results can be achieved by departing from them, there needs to be an understanding of that is being . If the person isn’t aware what they’re doing, they may get a fantastically unorthodox image by pure luck and be unable to replicate it. This would be the same way that someone who has no understanding of exposure and composition will occasionally get a brilliantly exposed and composed orthodox image by pure luck.
The point is that unless you have a full understanding of the craft of photography you won’t be in a position to maximise your potential – whether you decide to proscribe to the established rules or not. Hence the need to continue pointing out perceived flaws to people asking for critiques.
I do with Andy’s point about scores – I think we manage things pretty well here in terms of critiques. People give (for the most part) honest criticism and the recipients take it very well.
Cheers,
PeterNow that’s a really good idea, in a way-
it could even be used to rate a post-
for example, I could have a go at rating Mick’s post above-1. Overall Image Impact 10/10
2. Visual Awareness 10/10
3. Technical Expertise 10/10
4. Artistic Merit 10/10
5. Originality 10/10Awesome!
I’ve followed this thread with interest-
although I think that the original proposition was slightly flawed-
I don’t think that artistic merit and technical perfection are at different ends of a sliding scale-I think that it might be difficult to find a universal truth-
we seem to be talking about the exceptions to it-j
you have to find just a couple of people who’s opinion you value and go by that
I think to state something like this in writing is morally wrong as far as the purpose of the C&C section in PI goes.
If you were to post an image for C&C I would now be put off commenting for the simple reason that I doubt you could give a sh*te what I think and for that reason I won’t waste my time.
If that were the case then why not just PM the people’s who opinion you value your photo and ask them what they think and not bother posting in the C&C section at all?
If I post an image and someone goes to the effort of posting their thoughts, no matter how detailed or brief, then I appreciate the fact that this person took the time to do this and I will at times make an effort to thank everyone for their contribution. If I don’t do this it is because I don’t wanted to be viewed as post bumping.
Another thing that really bothers me is people who are so obvious in doing this… a number of “lesser viewed” members will post C&C… and then as soon as a “more valued member” states their opinion the person who posted the image will go out of their way to thank the “more valued member” effectively ignoring everyone else. Doesn’t happen that often but when it does it gets under my skin.
There’s also a social element to the C&C section which goes beyond the pictures, so whilst some comments may not be viewed as worthy it still gives people the opportunity to get to know one another.
Apologies for going off topic
Quote:
you have to find just a couple of people who’s opinion you value and go by thatI think to state something like this in writing is morally wrong as far as the purpose of the C&C section in PI goes.
I think there might be a bit of misinterpretation here, from both parties. My initial comment was relating to the polite comment as Mick correctly put it being welcome, but isn’t “critique” in the truest sense. To place an image in the critique section I expect a comment like “I like your image because…” or “I don’t like it because…” The “because”, or reasons to provide that opinion are vital. Some people don’t know why they like, or don’t like an image as Peter suggests but that is part of the learning process for us all. Look at Robs recent image that stirred debate.
Also, I see the comment that “I’m a newbie so I don’t know…”. It’s vital that all newbies (a god-awful term) do comment with their thoughts. Every opinion is equal and treated equally, whether it goes with the flow, or not. It helps to provide the individual decide on their own style.I think the emphasis on the “value” that Mick states is the opinion, not the person. I’ve been slated (strong term but all done in positive terms) by some individuals and equally positively commented on with praise by the same individual, several occasions and several individuals. Some are more fortright with their opinions based on their experience or knowledge but when C&C is offered, and I refer to the “because…” C&C, all opinions are taken on board. If they match with your own thoughts then there would be a bias, not a selection based on people.
In the end of the day it’s a faceless forum where comments can only be based on the use of words. Interpretation can only really be executed by the recipient and used as they see fit.
Alan.
ah yes the old critiques are a thoughy, on the technical v aesthetic debate, which could probably never be resolved, I think all images need to be technically perfect, its easy to get right, so why not, a friend once said, hes a great photographer shame about the crap images! anyway, i think any images out there whether it has a sunspot or not! if that sunspot was chosen to be put there, its technically the way it was meant to be, ah frig it this is too difficult.
i like photos
http://www.brendanryanphotography.com
I think to state something like this in writing is morally wrong as far as the purpose of the C&C section in PI goes.
I think you need to refer back to the context within which the statement was made – although perhaps it’s morally acceptable in your view to take words out of context.
If you were to post an image for C&C I would now be put off commenting for the simple reason that I doubt you could give a sh*te what I think and for that reason I won’t waste my time.
I generally try to disregard the value of any comments I don’t find constructive in their criticism, NFL.
The positive vibe stuff (awesome/wow/whatever) is nice to get certainly, but it doesn’t really give me much to go on in terms of why something is liked. Ditto the negative vibe stuff (don’t like it / not my thing / don’t get it), how does that help anyone unless there’s a bit of thought put into the why and how things could be improved. If I were to value all responses to images equally then depending on the image I posted I could believe myself to either be a photographic marvel or someone who shouldn’t be let near a camera again…ever…and have my eyes plucked out and served to rabid dogs just to be sure.
Are there people who’s opinion I value more than others, of course there are and i’d be lying if I claimed otherwise. Does that mean I won’t EVER find something constructive in what someone else says in a comment…yes, yes it does, because I’m f*ucking brilliant and you are all mere playthings for me to chuckle at as you bow down before my almighty enlargements with bedazzled pixelated hotspots in your eyes begging for me to smooth your impoverished and flawed histograms into shape with the wind that blows like a revolution of tone deaf angels from betwixt my sun blest and unbelieveably pert buttocks.Now that’s a bit sore… ouch
First point, I accept that I may have misinterpreted the context in which you made your point, the emphasis being opinions and not people which I obviously took up wrong. No problem with that, twice in one day. Apologies. I wouldn’t say it is morally acceptable to take words out of context, I would however say it is possible to misinterpret the meaning of words from time to time.
Second point, was merely meant as an illustration of how I would react given my then perception of the first point which I have accepted was flawed. Probably poorly worded as it reads like a statement of intent when it wasn’t meant as such.
As for all the other stuff (almighty enlargements, bedazzled pixelated hotspots, impoverished and flawed histograms etc.)… an eloquent display of your grasp of the English language in conjunction with the craft of photography, makes for nice reading if you’re into that thing. Not sure what message you trying to drive home there? Sorry.
The one thing I will say to you Mick, which may be viewed as being controversial, is that if you took the timeout to post some structured C&C for people then that would speak volumes. You’ve surely spent a significant amount of time posting on this topic yesterday. You seem like a intelligent and well qualified gentleman who could offer something to the people on in the C&C forum in the way of your thoughts.
These debates about critique seem to get quite heated and personal.
Although I’m not sure what Mick is getting at with his final comments, his earlier comments about what we take away from critique are worth some consideration.
We all have to filter information that comes our way. If we didn’t then we would be totally confused by the bombardment of conflicting advice and information. That’s not to say that we bury our head in the sand and take away only the praise. This is perhaps the least useful form of critique although for the egomaniacs amongst us (myself included) it will help bolster confidence. This is not always a good thing of course if confidence leads to arrogance. I try to filter information not by who makes it but more by the effort the poster has made in trying to communicate their feelings.
So I think that puts me in agreement with Mick on that one.
Andy
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