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What to charge
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Ok . Can we just answer one simple question please.
How much every one of us, (we are in different levels, different speciality etc but we all did our first paid job )
charge when was first asked to do some photos to somebody else then ourselves. Before you register your business, before you start being professionals. How much you charged or was it for free?PhotoSligo wrote:
Ok . Can we just answer one simple question please.
How much every one of us, (we are in different levels, different speciality etc but we all did our first paid job )
charge when was first asked to do some photos to somebody else then ourselves. Before you register your business, before you start being professionals. How much you charged or was it for free?That’s a bit like asking “how long is a piece of string”. Most people will have long forgotten what their first job was. Mine was to take a photograph for a local newspaper of a presentation of trophies in 1983. I charged £27.50 in those days for shot taken. In face that was the N.U.J.I. rate at the time in punts, so why should I do it any cheaper? This was a rate set by a union and even though I was not a member, I still produced shots that were acceptable and fit for purpose so all being so, I charged accordingly.
When I started as a photographer (not professional) on day one, I charged for EVERY SINGLE job, and every shot taken. Working with professional film and using a professional lab I had high costs, so I had to charge. I also value my time, I still do …….. and my time must be paid for. If I go out to take shots, process them here in the studio, print or transmit as necessary, time is involved and must be paid for as well as materials, equipment, depreciation, travel, etc. etc. This is business, plain and simple.
If I can not sell my time and get paid a reasonable rate, then there is living, travel, enjoying life to be done. I do not know of a single person who offers their employer that they will work for free ……. how stupid that would be. When it comes to photography itself, If I were to feel that I could not give the job on hand the expertise and the level of competence that it requires, then I would not take it on. I would decline or pass it over. I would never take on a job until such time as I had gone away and trained for it. Working in the field on your own should never be considered as a training ground. Trial and error are not an option.
If you take on a job at a price or, even for free, remember that you still carry all the associated responsibilities and pitfalls associated with the job and you can sue or be sued should anything go wrong. If you charge a euro or more you are liable for tax and MUST be registered and declare it in your returns. You must have public liability insurance at a minimum. The old thinking of “they will have their own insurance there” no longer holds water. There have been new changes to the law in recent times (last few days in fact) that will now make people ask if you have insurance before you will be taken on. If you have been asked, and are doing a job for someone, then a contract exists in law.
You are obsessed with “free”, “cheap” and cut price. If your work is of a standard then charge for it. Some posts on this thread makes me feel that getting the job at any price ……. even zero, is the most important factor of all.
My advice is;
If you can do the job and get the results then charge the market price for your work.
If you are only learning or feel you can not produce the desired results then polity decline the work, recommend someone who can do it and stay learning and practising until you can do the job in the future. The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of cheap prices have been forgotten. You often hear people say, particularly with work around the home, “It was expensive, but he did a great job”. You never hear the words “He did a bad job but sure he was cheap, so it’s OK”.
NLEEPHOTOS wrote:
I have been asked to do a 3 day horse event in august, which would require me to take photos of from 10 am till 6 pm for 2 of the days and a few hours on the third day. I have no idea what to charge for this or what sort of deal to go for. Anyone wish to give me some advice on this. I have shot horse events and I am familiar with the schedule of events, I have just never done any paid work in this area.
Thanks in advance.Nicola
Nicola, I would agree with Paul and Ashley on this one. I notice that you are familiar with the schedule of events on the day so you obviously have taken shots for such events before. Keep in mind that the shooting time is one thing but the processing is time consuming also. Never consider cut price work or getting the job at the lowest cost. This would be a stupid idea and would be putting little value on your time and on your worth as a person as well as a photographer. Somebody, somewhere, at some committee meeting has been given the job to ask you for a quote because your work has been seen and appreciated. So make the most of it and never sell yourself short.
PhotoSligo wrote:
Do not go to any professional association for advice do not pay any business advisor.
Nicola tell them €100 a day. Treat it as your practice . If you will get next job on photography you will know what is going and next time you will be more familiar with everything.Read the first post. She is familiar with the sequence of events. She may not have done a paid job before but do not insult her by assuming that she does not know what she is doing and should treat it as a “practise run”. As regards giving the advice of not going to a professional association for advice and advising people not to pay any business adviser, I feel this, in the photography business section, is extremely shallow advice. While I, personally, am not a member of any association at present, giving such advice to someone who just asks for pricing help is way out of line.
I know she is familiar with schedule. Same as any person attending for a soccer game is familiar with game schedule, not everybody who is familiar with schedule have to deliver good photos , but if we have 2 photographers with “same ” skills , equipment etc and one is familiar other one not, we can suspect this one with knowing schedul can deliver better photos. Gerry answer please how much did you charge when somebody asked you for photos way before you set-up your business? did you went to bussines advisor than , did you look for professional advice? Why so many people advice to do it, advice to be so expansive , advice to complicate things?
I wrote it with full respect to quality of your commercial work Ashley and Gerry to your experience in business.PhotoSligo wrote:
.. how much did you charge when somebody asked you for photos way before you set-up your business?
I assume Nicola asked: ‘what to charge for this or what sort of deal to go for’, because she would really like to know the ‘best answers’ to these questions, rather than know what some of us may have charged or done, 30+ years ago when we started out.
So with 30+ years of experience behind me, Darek – I have tried my best to answer her questions, so as to help her logically think it through for herself – as there simply isn’t one single simple answer to these questions, as you rightly said here:
PhotoSligo wrote:.. it is well know problem with photography : how much charge and what is bad, good and very good, and there is no one simple answer.
So I really don’t see how answering this question you are now asking, will help answer Nicola’s questions here, in any way !!
Trying to put a price on something that doesn’t yet exist or trying to figure out what one should charge for such a thing, is one of the toughest questions one will ever have to answer. And I can tell you now, 30 years on, it doesn’t get an easier – because there simply isn’t one single simple answer like you said.
But these days, with the aid of business forums like this and the worldwide web, you can at least try to educate yourself first, by asking others questions and reading what has already been written on the topic, before you start.
Then armed with that information, you can at least try to do right – or not, if you so desire – because it’s your business after all.
GCP wrote:
Most people will have long forgotten what their first job was. Mine was to take a photograph for a local newspaper of a presentation of trophies in 1983. I charged £27.50 in those days for shot taken. In face that was the N.U.J.I. rate at the time in punts, so why should I do it any cheaper? This was a rate set by a union and even though I was not a member, I still produced shots that were acceptable and fit for purpose so all being so, I charged accordingly.
Example of words that Gerry could have used back then, when invoicing this client:
To provide 1 image of a presentation of trophies at [the name of the location] in Galway.
For exclusive use, for [the name of the publication company] to use this image for:-
Media use: Editorial feature in [the name of the] newspaper only.
Period of use: 1 week from 1st publication date (ends 31st August 1983).
Territory of use: Ireland only.
(BUR: £55.00*)
Licence fee based on the above: £27.50.*In other words, in this example it would have been Gerry’s BUR-50% due this client only needing to use his image in 1 media for 1 week in 1 country – which would be considered to be less than standard use i.e. this would have been a discounted rate for that logical reason.
(Standard use being either: 2 media for 1 years use or 1 media for 2 years use, in 1 country – according to the AOP).
Not saying that is what Gerry did – but hopefully it will help let some of you see the logical behind this type of pricing system, which the AOP and other similar professional photographer’s associations around the world, would suggest photographers use when negotiating the fee – for the use of your images – beforehand.
PhotoSligo wrote:
Gerry answer please how much did you charge when somebody asked you for photos way before you set-up your business? did you went to bussines advisor than , did you look for professional advice? Why so many people advice to do it, advice to be so expansive , advice to complicate things?
I wrote it with full respect to quality of your commercial work Ashley and Gerry to your experience in business.As I said above I charged for every photograph I took. When I charged the £27.50 for my first photograph I was not working as a Professional Photographer, I was then a process engineer in a computer manufacturing factory. It was 6 years later before I left that position to become a full time professional photographer. I sought advice and charged the then current N.U.J.I. rate and why not? I had to pay for film, have it developed and printed and then post the photograph to the paper. This cost money. You could not shoot and look at the back of the camera to see if it was there in those days ……… every single click of the shutter cost money – hard earned cash.
As regards advice …………. I still seek GOOD advice and attend, at a minimum, two carefully selected courses each year from which I will always learn something or even make some valuable contacts. One must do this if one is to keep up to date at a minimum. This costs money and rightly so. If you attend university for some degree course then you must make the investment so, as you see, any training of any kind must be paid for and should be regarded as an investment in your future.
To give you an example;
In 2008 I attended a three day course in Leeds. I learned nothing that I did not know already but I met another photographer from Luton and we became good mates. Later that year he was asked to work on the “Strictly Come Dancing” series on BBC and asked me to assist him. I was happy to do so, got handsomely paid at the time and have worked on every series since. I now also do some private work for the pro dancers in the UK. This is as a result of making a good contact. (see some private snap shots on my facebook page)http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.494652867252906.123374.494544560597070&type=1″ onclick=”window.open(this.href);return false;
So you see ………… from day one I charged for every photograph ……. even when I was not a professional photographer. I simply had to!
The term “Professional photographer” only means you make a total living from photography. It does not mean a certain level of competency ……… it probably should, but it does not. I began photography with the view of making a living from it and that is where I am some thirty years later. It took six years to get to a level where I could move over full time. This would never have happened if I began with the attitude of cutting the price that the more established ones were charging, giving away free photographs or such like. This would be stupid and foolish and would only serve to demolish the already established industry as it was back then. I could have been greedy and cut my price to get more work then but this would mean that the more established photographers would begin to feel the pinch and cut their prices to retain their work. This would create a greedy, vicious, stupid and unnecessary price cutting exercise and a “race to the bottom” like what is happening right now in the industry. In those days I had a mortgage, two of my three children were already born and a wife who stayed at home to care for them. They had to be raised, cared for, educated, etc. so making a living is what counted. It was far from easy most of the time, sometimes it was great but always close to the cliff edge.
Business has not changed over the years. Illusions on how business is done have changed but at a basic level the milkman does not give away free milk or the baker does not give free bread. The rich multi-nationals may do a bit of below cost selling on some items and make it up on others but I do not feel that any Irish professional photographer has the cash capital funding to allow them to participate in such marketing activities.
So, charge for your work. Freebies are never appreciated and if you get into such a rut it is hard to dig yourself out. Eaten bread is soon forgotten. This is my good advice to you and on this occasion ……. it is free!
Just like every industry! Price is a killer.
It’s not about what you charge to get the work; its about what you charge to come out with a profit you are happy with.
You must know what it will cost you to do the work and then profit. Add your wage to the cost of doing the work and if the customer wants a better price take it from profit only after you tried the give more at the same price.
I work in sales and its always better to give a bit more for the same price rather than taking money out of your pocket.
Well that’s my advice anyway. Best of luck.
BrianPhototype wrote:
.. and its always better to give a bit more for the same price rather than taking money out of your pocket.
Yes – as in: give them more images to use or give them more use of your images for the same price – because it’s all to do with what they will get for X amount, rather than what it costs you.
So the main 4 things that you should stay focused on, when negotiating the fee beforehand are:
1. Number of images that they can use.
2. Media use.
3. Period of use.
4. Territory of use.As it’s those 4 things that they will see value in, because each of those 4 things will be important to them.
Which has very little to do with ‘your time’ – other than you may need to take it into account first – before you start negotiating the fee for the use of your images, which you are agreeing to produce & then provide them with, for them to use.
Phototype wrote:
I work in sales and its always better to give a bit more for the same price rather than taking money out of your pocket.
Or let me put it another way Brian, since you are in sales – if you are saying that Nicola here should just charge them for ‘her time’ (€100 a day) – then what more would you suggest she offers to give them here, for the same price, that won’t cost her more ??
Hi Nicola, I’m guessing at this stage the deal is either done for the horse show shoot.
I have been following this post with interest and I am going to add something from a recent shoot I did.
About a year ago I got an e mail from a nephew of a very good friend of mine. He saw a photo I took of one of his sculptures and asked about using it on his website. I quoted him €50 for 2 years use. He was happy with that. A few weeks ago he contacted me again and wanted ‘some’ photos to update his website.
Those were to be detail photos of some of his work, showing texture, form etc. and some of him working.
I told him I had not done that kind of photography, but he said ‘I know you will get good pictures for me’. Against what Gerry advises I said I would do it, and I treated it as a learning exercise . I figured 1/2 day shooting 1/2 day editing. and quoted €150 with no guarantee of useable images. ( I took much longer shooting)
I delivered 75 images , many of which were almost identical, with only slight changes of lighting and position for each piece.
I got an e mail from the artist, saying the photos were great and just what he was looking for. He said, ‘I had originally planned on using 4 or 5 as a slide show, but there are 10 I really like. I know your usual useage fee is €50, but could we do a deal for 10 images.’We are working on a deal where he will contact me when he has some new pieces and I will photograph them for a flat fee, and he can have on his own computer to show potential clients, We will have a kind of rolling license deal where every year he pays for the use of 10 images which I will take at various stages and he can upload to his website as he chooses.
I left a lot of money on the table and the artist came back and gave it back to me , along with a potential long term deal.
I am in no way advocating accepting work you cant deliver or doing work on a handshake, but in this instance, had I not licensed a previous image to the artist, I would have left with €150 (and been happy to have been paid to experiment and learn)So maybe Nicola if you have not already quoted, then you might quote a creative fee for your days to cover expenses etc and a useage fee for any images that they use.
Redto – This is answer we expected, not answer how to charge for pro photography when you are pro as we all now well how much to charge and what to deliver to live from it.
PhotoSligo wrote:
Redto – This is answer we expected, not answer how to charge for pro photography when you are pro as we all now well how much to charge and what to deliver to live from it.
“A photographer [from Greek φωτός (photos), meaning “light”, and γράφω (graphos), meaning “written”] is a person who takes photographs. A professional photographer uses photography to earn money; amateur photographers take photographs for pleasure and to record an event, emotion, place, or person.”
So in this case, Nicola here, would be described as a ‘Professional photographer’ – as she plans to earn money from doing this photography.
Now if you look at what Tony wrote here, you will see he actually did as I described i.e. he charged for the use of his images and clearly stated what the Media use, Period of use & Territory of use was, to which this fee related to.
Okay, his actual wording may have been slightly different – but otherwise, this was basically the deal…
To provide 1 image of ………….
For exclusive use, for [the name of this Artist] to use this image for:-
Media use: Worldwide web & promotional emails only.
Period of use: 2 years.
Territory of use: Internet only.
(BUR: €50.00).
Licence fee based on the above: 1 x €50.00 = €50.00.and then later on it basically was…
To provide 10 images of ………….
For exclusive use, for [the name of this Artist] to use these images for:-
Media use: Worldwide web & promotional emails only.
Period of use: 2 years.
Territory of use: Internet only.
(BUR: €50.00 per image).
Licence fee based on the above: 10 x €50.00 = €500.00.Ok, so Tony charged a ‘creative fee’ (€150.00) – but since this Artist didn’t actually get anything for that amount, then that was really just like a deposit – which the Artist probably didn’t actually pay him for anyway, unless he paid Tony that amount beforehand.
If he didn’t, then all the Artist really paid Tony for, was for the use of his (Tony’s) images afterwards i.e. a Licence fee based on the above.Now I could be wrong, but that would be ‘my take’ on what Tony wrote here… all be it he used different words.
Ashley you are right in how it finished up. Darek, you are right in how it started off. Let me try to explain.
I was not sure I could deliver photos that the artist would want to use. I knew they would be better than he had, but I was also worried/scared about photographing an artists work and making it look like he wanted. So I quoted him 150 for some photos (3-6 was mentioned at one stage) It was low but I figured it would get a few bucks and I could practice and learn, so I was not that worried. You could say that the 150 was work for hire price.
I delivered 75 proofs .
Because I had licensed a photo to this artist before, He expected/knew that the 150 was the price for using 3-6 photos on his web site (it was not a written contract) He liked most of the photos and wanted to use 10 on his site. He asked me would I do a deal for using more than the initial 3-6 to which I said yes.
Now if he had not been aware of the idea of licensing the images he would have walked off with 10 or all the images and I would have got 150 and been none the wiser and out of pocket. Because of the previous deal he expected to pay for the use of the images. He asked me for a price to use more images than had initially been talked about. (honest ethical man)
So definitely pricing for use of images is a win win situation. I do completely understand the idea of quoting a day rate or half day rate because its a tangible thing that you can get your head around and the client can get their head around. I don’t think you could use a useage fee type pricing structure for a party or reunion etc, but in this instance you can certainly see the benefit of it versus a fixed fee.
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