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Will I keep going or am I wasting my time?
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Thanks to all for your support but I do not want to hog this thread.
For what its worth ………….. and it’s only my research and opinion (not usually worth the paper it’s written on !) but I’ll share a short report I did for the members of our own group here in the west last year on wedding photography. Keep in mind this was done with the knowledge that some of us were still charging prices that were too high (in my opinion again !) even when times were good and people thought they were millionaires. When I say we need to cut prices I mean to a realistic level ……… not to the point of going broke !
Hope this will help someone here in some shape or form but they are just my own thoughts and it was well received by our own group.
Just something to think about really !Weddings & Wedding Photographers in Ireland.
(The Statistics & The current Wedding Business for photographers)
Wedding (Numbers)
2000 19,168 *
2001 19,246 *
2002 20,556 *
2003 20,302 *
2004 20,619 *
2005 21,355 *
2006 21,841 *
2007 22,544 *
2008 22,243 *
2009 21,541 *
2010 ?* Obtained from The Central Statistics Office of Ireland
Photographers (Numbers)
Irish Photographers Website list 859 photographers in Ireland (26 Counties)
IPPA Lists 332 Photographers as members
Photography Ireland has 4547 members with probably 100 doing weddings
Unlisted there are approx 470 others (friends, uncles, unregistered part timers, etc) doing wedding photographyIf we add the figures with some assumptions
IPW 859
IPPA 75 (approx. not already listed in IPW)
Non Listed 470
PI 75Total 1479
We have approx 1470 photographers (and growing) doing an annual 21,500 weddings
This is an average of less than 15 weddings annually per photographer.
If we agitate the figures and apply swings and trends it will equate to some photographers
ending up with an annual quota of 20 to 25 with some attaining 5 to 10 but the average of 15 is the figure we will mostly be seeing into the future.
Ultimately a percentage of photographers will drop out but they will be replaced by newcomers trying their hand at making a “fortune” in what looks like an easy industry.Conclusions
• Even though we are in a recession it is evident from CSO return figures that wedding numbers have not fallen. The only answer I can conclude is that the Number of wedding photographers have increased dramatically over the past 5 or so years. The digital camera and its relative ease of use, its seemingly instant appearance on the back screen has put photography within the realms of most users. Even though looking at the image on the screen after its taken is no guarantee that the image exists on the memory card and the simple fact that extracting the memory card from the camera without care can short contacts and erase data does not seem to put the user off.
• Remember that weddings are the most difficult work a photographer can do and it causes the most tension and stress and ultimately can, and probably will, damage your health. Yet it is the one field of photography that seems to attract most would be photographers.
• Right now there is a price war between entry level photographers and the established ones. Photographers with high overheads, tax and VAT compliance, modern up-to-date equipment, proper insurance, rent or mortgage on premises, etc, can not compete with the home operators. The reality is that the prices of 4 years ago are no longer available. Wages have fallen across the economy, unemployment is high and salaries have been cut. For the first time ever, government and civil service salaries have been cut. Banks are in financial difficulties and lending is almost non existent. The flow of money and liquid capital has slowed to a trickle. People who have money have stopped spending. It’s not just an Irish problem but most of Europe and the western world are in this together. The world is re-aligning its monetary systems and the costs of goods, services and labour are also being re-aligned downwards. Our price structures as photographers must also follow the trend and it seems that this is happening and will continue to happen whither we as individuals wish to participate or not. The saying that “half a loaf is better than no bread” comes to mind. To put it another way ……… after an illness if you need a transfusion of four pints of blood to keep you alive but only three are available. Will you (a) refuse the three because you can not get the fourth one or (b) will you take the three and hope you can survive? It’s a question we all need to reflect on. The same question applies to business in todays economy.
• Overheads and serviceable debt, or particularly the lack thereof, will be the tools that will help keep us afloat or sink us in these uncertain times.
• Here are some important factors that are important if one is to survive;
1 Look at new ways of generating income and stop the flow of money going out. Look for new off-shoots where new business can be generated. You may need to come up with an entirely new product or product range. Think outside the box ! ………….. brainstorm and list new ideas. Mull them over and refine the ideas. See if an idea will spark off another chain of ideas. Where would Wilkinson be today if they continued to make swords !
2 Pool resources and amalgamate where possible. Share machinery, studio facilities, office facilities, staff (if possible), deplete stocks, particularly older stock that may be in danger of being obsolete. Operate the JIT (just in time) principle and do not let stock build up. It is only causing money to be tied up and is deteriorating and becoming obsolete on your shelf instead of the shelves of the manufacturer or distributor. Our type of stock, eg. Albums, papers, inks, frames, mouldings, mount board, adhesives, tapes, etc need to be stored in a dry, heated environment and heat costs money !
3 Cut outgoings to the minimum and get rid of debt. Look at all your bills and save where possible. Do you need the services you are paying for such as high internet payments, big mobile phone bills, Sky television services, especially sports and movies. Magazine subscriptions, club, association, Gym and leisure club memberships, newspaper advertising, Golden Pages, web site expenses and listings, membership of a professional body, etc. If it’s expense you can do without or you are not gaining at least the value of your membership or fees by being there then it’s money wasted and should be better spent elsewhere, Look at your loan repayments and see if you really need them. Can you sell something or some unnecessary asset where you can offset the proceeds against your borrowings. Pay off credit card debt and destroy all cards except one and make a genuine effort to better control its use. We are in an age where one has to think “if I really don’t need it then I should liquidate it”. There is no guarantee that things will get any better in time for you to enjoy the proceeds and enjoy life. If you wish to enjoy life, then do it now ………. there is no tomorrow, only a dream of what we would like tomorrow to be but life has a nasty way of turning dreams upside down when you least expect it. Look at your pension contributions. There is so much uncertainty out there that it may be a good time to put further contributions on hold. The new rich in this current climate in Ireland are those who own the bare essentials and owe nothing or have no repayments to make monthly. We will envy them in time to come ….. they are the new rich of Ireland.
4 Sell off unused equipment or old equipment (Use Ebay). It is much better having €50 in your hand than a piece of equipment that is just getting older and taking up space. Remember that machines and equipment lying about will also soak up much needed heat in winter and raise your heating and energy bills. Scrapping items that you can’t sell, particularly metal objects, is a must. Metal soaks up heat.
5 Renting premises and leasing can be enormous overheads. Are you renting a premises in an area where rents traditionally are high but it gives the “right image” ? Would a smaller premises do ? Can you work from home ? Most photographers and particularly our counterparts in the UK have abandoned the high street in an effort to survive. If your name is established, is it really necessary to have elaborate premises? Sometimes this can have a negative effect in the sense that some customers see the showroom as a sign of wealth at their expense and in Ireland we like to keep people at a “level”. Its an “Irish thing” that we do not like to see people achieve and rise above the average ………. We do all we can to pull them down but if they are down and out we will fund raise and do all we can to pull them up to “normal” ……… whatever we perceive that to be !
6 Employees are one of our greatest cost overheads. There are wages, PRSI, employee insurance, employers liability, holiday and bank holiday pay, maternity leave, extra heating bills, gratuities, sick pay, work conditions, etc to be financed. Do we need the employees we have ? Are we holding on to excess labour costs because we feel we must ……… letting the heart rule the head ?
7 Generate a set of new markets and product sets if possible. The world is continuously changing and evolving and never stands still ……. never has and never will. Since the stone age, through the Iron Age and through the Industrial Revolution life and life’s needs changed and evolved. Technology dictates many of the changes and in the case of photography the digital camera took photography to the masses and gave a first time camera handler the means to produce acceptable images and photographs. This is something we can not change and we must learn to live with the fall out. The customer never demanded award winning photographs but always wanted acceptable images at a fair price.
8 Look at new directions and try to identify niches in the community where you do business. This could even mean getting out of photography and using your time and energy on something that is more profitable and worthwhile. For some of us it may mean getting a job in another industry altogether. A friend of mine has 3 business units running hand in hand in Dublin. One is fire equipment sales and service, one is a pair of mobile telephone shops and the third is a unit in Sandyford that does home health care products. He tells me that at different times of the year they all have their quiet times in trading but overall the y average a good year. Supplement your income from photography with extra sales such as photography related stuff like digital consumer products, memory cards, memory sticks, printing paper, ink cartridges, digital frames, etc. Offer extra services such as image recovery, image storage on CD & DVD. If you can’t do it yourself then a colleague may be able to do it and split profits. Offer restoration work on old prints, etc. Do a cheap line of frames. Offer reprints from customer’s cameras and cards.
• Lets look at the figures in a different way; Lets assume that the average photographer needs a profit of say €50,000 per year from wedding photography and lets assume that 50 weddings per year was the average per photographer up to recent years. That equates to €1000 profit per wedding. Not Bad ! In the current economy and it seems in the future a photographer still needs €50,000 per year from weddings but has to make it on less weddings. So looking at the new average above it looks like this; 50 Weddings €50,000 €1,000 per wedding 25 Weddings €50,000 €2,000 per wedding 20 Weddings €50,000 €2,500 per wedding 15 Weddings €50,000 €3,330 per wedding 10 Weddings €50,000 €5,000 per wedding
Looking at it from a business point of view or a manufacturing facility. Unless the market needs larger quantities of product to be produced, (in our case Weddings), then the number of employees in the company (Photographers) can not be sustained.eg. In the year 2000 we had about 500 employees producing 19,168 units and in the year 2009 we have about 1400 employees producing 21,541 units. The production rate is not increasing to sustain the number of employees so like any good industry we have to shed employees
If we were in a controlled environment such as a factory or production unit the answer would be simple:
A Shed employees through redundancy
B Shed employees through natural wastage
C Close operations and cease tradingSome very good & interesting points raised by Gerry. I would say to Johnny, if you love what you do, stick with it. Times are difficult for most of us at the moment, but if you take stock of what you are currently doing & build a business plan around it which is cost effective, you will soon see an improvement in your business. Learning to adapt, such as offering different goods & services & as Gerry said, getting rid of stuff that you don’t need can really make a difference.
Currently I am busy re-touching a view out a window of an architectural shot, it is very tedious, so I have to admit I did not fully read the post but IPPA has 333 photographers listed only 219 are listed as Wedding Photographers. As you can enter 3 or more types of Photography as your area of business, many commercial, portrait and fashion photographers will also put in weddings as there area of business. So it is safe to assume that maybe less than 1/2 IPPA members really look at weddings as a serious source of income.
Now if we assume that the IPPA represent a fair cross section of Photographers then your estimates are over by 50%.Sometimes instead of thinking there are two many fish in a small pond and wishing for less fish you have to make the pond bigger. offer a pro service to a wider range of potential clients, get them to use a pro photographer more often. But in this case maybe there are less fish in the pond than you thought.
wow! amazing topic!
I was going to ask how is the market there at Ireland some of these days…
Gerry’s post gave me a good view of what is happening and your behavior, and it’s very interesting!Well, I’ll tell from what I know from here, of Brazil’s wedding market.
We have a LOT of wedding photographers, and a LOT of bad wedding photographers.
It seems people don’t want to update their equipment and techniques… I shoot a baptism last year, and there was a lot of children there, with their own photographer. There was some cameras and flashes there that I could swear that came out from an “old time movie”!What I learned from all I’ve seen, and the courses I made, is:
1 – Don’t give up! :)
2 – Develop a strong photographic style, and be yourself.
3 – Don’t think that just because you lower your price when demanded by a client, you are actually winning. As said up there, you have bills, and the companies will not lower their prices just to fit yout budget.
4 – At least here, there are clients to every price range. Study your portfolio, make a solid business plan and go ahead to achieve the clients that you seek, knowing their preferences.
5 – Use the internet a loooot! Web based portfolios, a good looking website is a great first step. Use social networks as twitter and facebook to show your recent shoots and “mark” people in the pictures, so they’ll know in their profile and pass the photo to other people (here it’s a powerful way, that’s giving a lot of good result)
6 – Take care of your personal presentation. Your outfit, haircut, shoes and nails tells a lot about you, before you say a single word.About what Jhonny said in his first post:
I think you could try to give the parent albuns as an option for the client.
Sell the service of shooting the wedding + the tradicional album.
The parent albuns, calendars and everything else may be purchased as a plus, with single prices to each product.
Some clients may not think it’s essencial, or even something that will make them choose you instead of any other one. Sometimes they just want to have that memory registered, and that’s all. You may be giving more then they need, and loosing profit on doing so… :(sorry for my “rusty” english :)
Hi All,
I just want to say a BIG Thank you for reading and for your replies!I just went through the Graphistudio costs and compare other two recommended album suppliers – Sim2000 and Loxley
My product offer is 40 Pages on Metallic paper, Front Cover in Full colour with glass/plastic Cover, Suitcase and 4x Parent Book including postage and VAT
Sim2000 –(€75 cheaper than graphistudio, No Suitcase as I can’t find it)
Loxley –(€110 cheaper than graphistudio. In Premum Presentation Boxes – Is “Classic” a box or suitcase?)So Loxley seems to be the best choice to go for? has anyone had any experience with them….both positive and negative?
Loxley albums are good, not super, but good, as comparable to graphi. They come in a box from what I remember. But why on earth would you really want a wedding album coming in a briefcase????
Not sure if Loxley do metallic paper in albums, but I’d save a bit more and not even offer it – 2 reasons, firstly not every image is suited to metallic paper, secondly it makes pricey albums even pricier!Great post guys and I’m in the same situation as Johnny – just barely hanging in there.
What are your views on marketing. I took my foot off the marketing/advertising pedal a few years ago after have spent largely and found the drop in business staggering. Then I found it virtually impossible to get the marketing momentum going again – I’d heard a adage something like that great companies increase their advertising spend during a downturn. I didn’t believe it when I heard it but am not at all sure now.
Mike, I was never big at advertising but right now I just would not have the funds to spend and I just would not borrow at this stage. The spend is down and photography is not a necessity in everyday life. The 18 to 40 age group are now watching their spending as work is scarce and uncertain, mortgages are high and have to be serviced – if they can even be got now! The whole economy is doom and gloom and spending is just not happening on non-essential goods. I would not advise any large investment into this industry right now ……. its just too unstable and diluted.
I feel it is time to just sit tight through the current storm, avoid the flying debris and the people who are running around in panic in the middle of the whirlwind and try to get out the other end uninjured.The wedding market is gone to bits at any rate but in the last 2 years I have been doing very nicely at commercial work which was something I never did much of previously. I now see that I was in the most difficult side of photography in doing weddings and they are not at all as profitable. Weddings are mostly about crowd control and snapping quickly while on a commercial shoot you have the time to think, be more creative and the job is pure photography. I now can’t understand why I avoided this work for so long.
If I were depending only on how I was working 3 to 4 years back I’d be now out of business and broke but I was really lucky that the commercial began to build up. It’s still more luck than good management that it happened that way though.
Gerry, agree so much with you about advertising – I just don’t have the funds to spend on it now and am constantly looking around for free marketing opportunities – which are becoming more and more difficult to find.
I agree about the wedding market – because it is so easy to market into a lot of Argos photographers have popped – guys/gals who got their redundancy and decided to earn a few bob shooting weddings – it has become the new taxi business! I know someone before, maybe not even on this post view was that there will always be low quality service but there will always be a market for higher quality products. But what I’m seeing is that peoples expectations for their wedding photographs is dropping to the level of the new entrants.
Hey Johnny,
I hope you dont mind that im only new and here to offer some advice. :)
Perhaps you could try finding cheaper ways to bring in your stock. Even if you buy in from another country online ( i do it alot myself and can get things a hell of alot cheaper, you think that it would be dearer with purchase, postage and so on, but you just have to be really aware and buy from the best places, alot of online stores do free shipping with orders over a certain price ) you could get things cheaper and then perhaps the prices you charge would be sufficient.
From what i see your prices are very reasonable for what you offer. So you could try and increase your prices. Which might be a bit hard now as like damiend said it is word of mouth now and people will think they are getting ripped off. I know people who pay what you are asking for for a simple photo album of a number of photos. Your offering keyrings and everything.
SO i think your best bet is to increase your prices or decrease the price of the albums/keyrings etc. That you are bringing in.
Hope this helps,
Lovelifeps: I personally dont think that you should give it up. If its something you love and you worked to get where you are, you should never give up. If you love it as much as you say, everything will turn around for the best. Think of this down time as a test to proove your love and strong will to keep your passion alive.
What an excellent thread..a future stickie maybe?
Fair play to you Johnny for sticking with it and having the courage to do something that you feel passionate about, even though you could obviously earn more at a regular 9-5 job.
It seems to me that, as some of the others have already said, a lot of your problems are down to the business end of things, so maybe you need to get someone involved that has more of a business head. It doesn’t even have to be a professional..maybe a family friend with experience..just someone to go over your books with you and see how things can be improved.
Looking at your work on here, and about to check your website, it’s obvious that you have the talent. That is always worth something, despite how it might seem sometimes. People will pay for that talent. I suppose it’s just a matter of finding the right outlet..and as Gerry said above..it might mean branching away from wedding work…at least for the time being.
Anyway..just my tuppence worth…I really hope it works out for you :-)
“ps: I personally dont think that you should give it up. If its something you love and you worked to get where you are, you should never give up. If you love it as much as you say, everything will turn around for the best. Think of this down time as a test to proove your love and strong will to keep your passion alive.Lovelife
Member “Tell this to the sheriff when he is removing you TV..
Sorry to say this lads but passion or love for what you do never paid a bill, nor will it keep food on Johnny’s table. Johnny (sorry to say this but) I think you would be much better off getting a job flipping burgers in a local chip van, because if you only have 3000 after working 7 days a week for most of the year well need I say more. The figures tell you what you need to do, don’t let you heart tell you what to do in business.
At the moment you are on a hell of a lot less than the new minimum wage with all the responsibility and work load of a wedding photographer.
Do yourself a big favour and get that part-time job or even a full time job and start earning what your worth, then try and build again from there.BTW, I can tell your passionate about this work because if you weren’t you would never have lasted this long.
Mark
I both totally agree and totally disagree with Mark. bit confusing eahh?
Agree:
If you earn 3 k a year for the next few years you will soon deplete any cash reserves you have and will end up broke unless you win the lotto.Disagree:
I in my 3rd year of this great adventure of turning a hobby into a job, my earnings in first year were negligible and year 2 was about double which was still low but now I am doing very well and am really busy, earning good money, making people happy and not having to worry about regular issues that some people in employment have to worry about, like doing a job they hate. The trick is to set targets work out how to achieve them and work bloody hard on the business as well as the pictures.“Tell this to the sheriff when he is removing you TV..
Sorry to say this lads but passion or love for what you do never paid a bill, nor will it keep food on Johnny’s table. Johnny (sorry to say this but) I think you would be much better off getting a job flipping burgers in a local chip van, because if you only have 3000 after working 7 days a week for most of the year well need I say more. The figures tell you what you need to do, don’t let you heart tell you what to do in business.
At the moment you are on a hell of a lot less than the new minimum wage with all the responsibility and work load of a wedding photographer.
Do yourself a big favour and get that part-time job or even a full time job and start earning what your worth, then try and build again from there.”What i meant Mark, was that if he has a true passion and love for what he is doing and wants to keep going it will all turn around if it is meant to be. I didnt mean that his love and passion would pay the bills, im aware of that.
Two of my family members own a business (neither of which photogaphy) and they are struggling now too. Its the times we are in, alot of people are struggling but you either get through it the best you can or give up. If you give up you may be stuck in the “give up” times for a long time as it can be very hard to come back around. Also… Think about the amount of unemployment at the moment, if you give up your work you may not find anything else and then you would be down the 3000 you are making – yes it may not be much but its more then you would make with no job, right?
Perhaps, like alot of people have said, take a look over your business with someone who has that sort of head or as Mark said about another job = but perhaps take on something part time while holding on to your business – just in case, you dont want to find a job, let go of your business and then be let go from the job.
Try and see which you would regret more also. When times turn around and everything goes back up, would you regret giving up your business or if you stayed with it, would you regret not giving it up?
Nobody can make this choice for you, and i know where Mark is coming from that you cant let your heart decide, but its hard to give up things that you love. Just think Logically :D
But i still think everything will turn around if its meant to be.
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